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New Delta vs AirTran
- Thread starter wood pecker
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LOL. Talking to ASA pilots, I have heard about more BS coming from this guys mouth than anybody. Remember, you guys are in negotiations. When something does happen ASA and Comair, managment will probably hear about it through the pilots or mechanics. That's just the way things go here at DCI. At least Comair managment admits they have no idea what delta is doing. "Skip Barnett", even the name sounds like a sales guy. I hope you guys aren't buying.FL000 said:
wood pecker
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2004
- Posts
- 325
Would big Delta agree if offered to fly 717 size planes for LCC wages. Don't worry about me buying DAL. The decision to not buy in mass qauntities will probaly be one of the biggest missed oppurtunities for me I am sure. I have friends that are throwing down $5000. They told me not worry b/c they might need a pilot to fly them around from island to island or a janitor.
FLB717
Pilot=proof of Gods humor
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2003
- Posts
- 627
aroundtheblock,
Those airlines that are lesser now include the traditional LCC's but also USA, UAL, AA. And if we apply you way of thinking they also need to thrown to the gutter. Most of these companies are very close in pay and bennie's for the same size aircraft. So do us all a favor and just stay right where you are. I wouldn't want to offend your sense of style or lower your future by having you work here or with these other fine pilot groups.
Those airlines that are lesser now include the traditional LCC's but also USA, UAL, AA. And if we apply you way of thinking they also need to thrown to the gutter. Most of these companies are very close in pay and bennie's for the same size aircraft. So do us all a favor and just stay right where you are. I wouldn't want to offend your sense of style or lower your future by having you work here or with these other fine pilot groups.
Last edited:
aroundtheblock
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2003
- Posts
- 159
flb717,
Rest assured I have not applied to Airtran. The major airlines you listed are going through never seen before industry hardships. Much of this hardship has come from 9/11, soaring fuel prices, poor management decisions, and a major shift in the way the typical business traveler purchases air travel.
Granted US Air, AA, and UA are now close to same in pay and bebefits for similar type aircraft as Airtran. They had to take a 30% pay cut to do it. Thus my comment of not getting into this industry for middle class wages.
The difference in quality of product at DL, AA, UA and US Air with LCC's like Airtran have diminished as these major airlines lower their standards of quality in order to compete financially. I'll give you that some of these qualities were slipping prior to 9/11.
As an Airtran pilot can you work a normal schedule, make a 150K/year, be at home with your family at least 13 days a month, put in 25 years of your time and effort to make a company grow and prosper, and then retire with a pension that will handsomely reward those efforts, professionalism and reponsibilities? If so, then my apologies. If not, then that isn't what the industry defined a major airline pilot job. Well, at least not before the LCC was born.
During times of uncertain economics many pilots have families to feed. I understand and respect that. I don't fault any pilot for going to work for a LCC at all. But let's not kid ourselves into thinking that flying for a LCC's are what we dreamed of as a kid, not for a final career. I know I didn't. It's a place to build a little time and experience till the dream jobs come back. Airtran may be a good job, but I doubt it is the dream job.
To Airtran's credit they have turned around what was once deemed the worst airline in the country. The marketing people are geniouses. They went from a cartoon character logo, buying old dc-9's from Pakistan, Morrocco, and Turkey, not to mention the Florida Everglades to a respectful airline overnight. Even the flight attendants as a group petitioned the FAA to keep the airline grounded due to unsafe practices. I don't know what you pay those marketing guys but it aint enough.
Rest assured I have not applied to Airtran. The major airlines you listed are going through never seen before industry hardships. Much of this hardship has come from 9/11, soaring fuel prices, poor management decisions, and a major shift in the way the typical business traveler purchases air travel.
Granted US Air, AA, and UA are now close to same in pay and bebefits for similar type aircraft as Airtran. They had to take a 30% pay cut to do it. Thus my comment of not getting into this industry for middle class wages.
The difference in quality of product at DL, AA, UA and US Air with LCC's like Airtran have diminished as these major airlines lower their standards of quality in order to compete financially. I'll give you that some of these qualities were slipping prior to 9/11.
As an Airtran pilot can you work a normal schedule, make a 150K/year, be at home with your family at least 13 days a month, put in 25 years of your time and effort to make a company grow and prosper, and then retire with a pension that will handsomely reward those efforts, professionalism and reponsibilities? If so, then my apologies. If not, then that isn't what the industry defined a major airline pilot job. Well, at least not before the LCC was born.
During times of uncertain economics many pilots have families to feed. I understand and respect that. I don't fault any pilot for going to work for a LCC at all. But let's not kid ourselves into thinking that flying for a LCC's are what we dreamed of as a kid, not for a final career. I know I didn't. It's a place to build a little time and experience till the dream jobs come back. Airtran may be a good job, but I doubt it is the dream job.
To Airtran's credit they have turned around what was once deemed the worst airline in the country. The marketing people are geniouses. They went from a cartoon character logo, buying old dc-9's from Pakistan, Morrocco, and Turkey, not to mention the Florida Everglades to a respectful airline overnight. Even the flight attendants as a group petitioned the FAA to keep the airline grounded due to unsafe practices. I don't know what you pay those marketing guys but it aint enough.
Ty Webb
Hostage to Fortune
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2001
- Posts
- 6,524
Wow . . . what cave have you been living in?
I don't have time to respond to your post in detail, as my wife and I have plans for the evening (that don't involve flightinfo.com) but I can tell you that, yes, you can certainly make that kind of money after a reasonable amount of time, have much more time than that off, fly new equipment, and enjoy a company-funded retirement contribution of 10.5% (that you administer yourself).
As for your view of AirTran, let me just say that VJ was 8 years ago. In fact, out of the 900+ pilots here, less than 100 VJ guys are still on the seniority list, so needless to say, the majority of us here weren't even around for the "bad ol' days". All the DC9's are gone. The 717's and 737's in our fleet are well-maintained, and we are looking forward to imrovements in our contract as this company matures.
I don't have time to respond to your post in detail, as my wife and I have plans for the evening (that don't involve flightinfo.com) but I can tell you that, yes, you can certainly make that kind of money after a reasonable amount of time, have much more time than that off, fly new equipment, and enjoy a company-funded retirement contribution of 10.5% (that you administer yourself).
As for your view of AirTran, let me just say that VJ was 8 years ago. In fact, out of the 900+ pilots here, less than 100 VJ guys are still on the seniority list, so needless to say, the majority of us here weren't even around for the "bad ol' days". All the DC9's are gone. The 717's and 737's in our fleet are well-maintained, and we are looking forward to imrovements in our contract as this company matures.
FLB717
Pilot=proof of Gods humor
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2003
- Posts
- 627
aroundtheblock,
The Legacey airlines have cut service standards long before AAI ever was a thought in someones mind. The reason for the cut in airline pilt pay is far deeper that an evil LCC, it was the more managment of those airlines by people who couldn't get them selves out of a paper bag let alone run an airline. As far as competition goes you can blame the US Congress for Deregulation. Me I would love to use full service meals and wine to bring passengers through the door. But on the other hand if we lived in the good ol' day I bet half of us would not even be able to have jobs as pilots if the tickets still costed the same now as the did in the 70's in respect to inflation. What Orlando to Atlanta, sure $1,800.00 dollors please. would you like to upgrade to First Class for $300.00 more? So you enjoy what you do and I'll enjoy what I do.
The Legacey airlines have cut service standards long before AAI ever was a thought in someones mind. The reason for the cut in airline pilt pay is far deeper that an evil LCC, it was the more managment of those airlines by people who couldn't get them selves out of a paper bag let alone run an airline. As far as competition goes you can blame the US Congress for Deregulation. Me I would love to use full service meals and wine to bring passengers through the door. But on the other hand if we lived in the good ol' day I bet half of us would not even be able to have jobs as pilots if the tickets still costed the same now as the did in the 70's in respect to inflation. What Orlando to Atlanta, sure $1,800.00 dollors please. would you like to upgrade to First Class for $300.00 more? So you enjoy what you do and I'll enjoy what I do.
Citrus Jockey
Active member
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2002
- Posts
- 40
aroundtheclock,
I know Ty and FLb717 have answered some of your questions, but I feel I must elaborate. You asked:
As a 9th year captain you would be making very close to 150,000 at 136/hr. If not 9th year, then definetly 10th year at 144/hr. Upgrades to capatin are happening now for people who have been here three years (112/hr). Pay tops out at year twelve at 152/hr on the 717 or 737-700. If and when the 737-800 shows up, add 13.5% to those figures for that airplane. (173/hr for 12th year captain). 13 days off would be the minimum you could expect to spend at home with you family, especially as a line holder. Most regular lines are 14-19 days off with 14 and 19 days off not that common, but 15-18 very common. With Vacation you can really maximize days off. If a trip carries into or out of your vacation it is dropped from your schedule. With one week of vacation next month I work one four day trip next month and have 20 days off in a row. Oh yeah my next four day trip was pulled off my schedule for IOE training so I will be home next weekend getting paid.
And not to mention this is from a contract that is amendable next spring. Don't know how much we can improve on it considering the state of the industry, but there are definetly some improvements we would all like to see. Later
Citrus Jockey
I know Ty and FLb717 have answered some of your questions, but I feel I must elaborate. You asked:
Answer: Yes
As a 9th year captain you would be making very close to 150,000 at 136/hr. If not 9th year, then definetly 10th year at 144/hr. Upgrades to capatin are happening now for people who have been here three years (112/hr). Pay tops out at year twelve at 152/hr on the 717 or 737-700. If and when the 737-800 shows up, add 13.5% to those figures for that airplane. (173/hr for 12th year captain). 13 days off would be the minimum you could expect to spend at home with you family, especially as a line holder. Most regular lines are 14-19 days off with 14 and 19 days off not that common, but 15-18 very common. With Vacation you can really maximize days off. If a trip carries into or out of your vacation it is dropped from your schedule. With one week of vacation next month I work one four day trip next month and have 20 days off in a row. Oh yeah my next four day trip was pulled off my schedule for IOE training so I will be home next weekend getting paid.
At AirTran we have a 10.5% company funded defined contribution retirement fund (B-Fund). After five years with the company I am vested. So if anything happens to AirTran I at least still have the money that was contributed to my account that is manged by me, and in addition I will have my 401k (15% of my own contributions) so effectively right now I have 25.5% of my earnings per year put into a retirement account. For someone earning 150,000 a year for the next 25 years or so that is alot of retirement money. I have 27 years left, and as is evident by the turmoil in this industry, those (A Fund) pensions are a rich target of creditors and management when a company enters bankruptcy. Look what is happening over at United. A promise to pay when you retire isn't appealing to me anymore.
And not to mention this is from a contract that is amendable next spring. Don't know how much we can improve on it considering the state of the industry, but there are definetly some improvements we would all like to see. Later
Citrus Jockey
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