New AT to SWA training plan out

[K-Mart]

Already done, you guys are done, but have fun poking the tiger, it will be fun to watch. And you'll get crap and like it, go Bronco's.

This is going to be such a train wreck...

Train wreck I won't be on!

Arbitrator? Sad when a group has to pin hope for a third party individual to give
them something they didn't put in an agreement to begin with. If Airtranwanted 717 protection they should have negotiated it. Which begs the question: why did the AirTran guys not negotiate it or at least included reopen language?

 

[Bill Nelson]

I tried.

Myself and Jack M were overruled by majority vote of the MC and NC and we spent our time working on other issues. I've mentioned that before, the thought at the time by the other MC/NC members was that there was little likelihood SWA could find a buyer for ALL the jets by 1/1/15.

The idea of a sub-lease never occurred to us because it would have triggered the pilots to go with it and M/B integration with the airline the planes were being transferred to. Also didn't occur to us that, outside of bankruptcy, SWA management would get around THAT language, too.

In the end, SWA management has pretty much ignored every signed document they wanted and challenged us to make them adhere to it and, again and again, we've proven that we either cannot or will not. Still working on finding my "happy place" after the fact... usually that involves working as absolutely little as possible these days and just enjoying my family.

Lear,

Which is it? The 717's going away was never contemplated or it was contemplated by your MC and just wasn't appropriately addressed because "there was little likelyhood that SWA could find a buyer?"

 

[Lear70]

Lear,

Which is it? The 717's going away was never contemplated or it was contemplated by your MC and just wasn't appropriately addressed because "there was little likelyhood that SWA could find a buyer?"

You're twisting what I said.

I said they made verbal assurances, both in negotiations and at road shows, that in NO event was the 717 going away before Operational Integration was complete, and also said, in all likelihood, they wouldn't go away at all before their leases were up.

I also said we discussed it and, after they threatened to reneg on the Process Agreement 6.A, I felt uncomfortable not having EVERY, SINGLE, LITTLE thing we verbally agreed to in writing (like not paying for uniforms, our pilots who reach mandatory retirement before they transition retaining pass privileges in retirement, not paying for our type, etc). However, except for this one piece, Southwest has honored ALL of those verbal agreements from negotiations that weren't in writing.

Just because we didn't nail every single thing down in writing doesn't mean Southwest didn't commit to it. In point of fact, there are SEVERAL things that were verbally committed to that Southwest has added by side letter AFTER the fact, thus honoring their agreement.

As such, don't try to sell people on the idea that they never made promises verbally that weren't in writing and that just because things aren't in writing, they will never honor them when, in fact, they have and do. Unfortunately, they're not with this one and it's a big one.

 

[ASADFW7]

Swa said I would upgrade in seven years and be a millionaire too. Uhm, at six plus I have a couple thousand pilots ahead of me to upgrade, and I just hit about 1/5 of the way to a million. I guess we will see how cheap or expensive talk is for SWA in reference to AAI. Good luck, just not at Swa pilots expense.

 

[Britpilot]

You may get just what you ask for, you may force SWA's hand. They may decide that you are right, the 717 is overmanned...

Oooooooo scarey talk. Is that what you wish for us?

 

[Britpilot]

I thought we were all on the same team. Huh.

 

[ATLplt]

I thought we were all on the same team. Huh.

We're only on the same team if it's remotely beneficial for them.

I don't know why anyone responds to scoreboard's drivel. Nobody but a flamebaiter would wish for another pilot to be furloughed, no matter which name is on the side of the airplane.

 

[madjack]

If damages such as CP retention slots or pay protections were given to former AAI pilots by SWA...SWAPA would go after SWA for breach of contract... Maybe that is why SWA could/would not
Settle with the AAI pilots regarding the sub lease of the 717s?

 

[redflyer65]

So the arguement is going to be on 'intent'?

You had plenty of time to put that in writing and it wasn't done. It's not in the agreement. Definitely an uphill battle when a company has a business to run...and decisions to be made accordingly.

 

[Ty Webb]

Wow . . . You guys have even more "Crew-room Lawyers" than we have.

 

[madjack]

So the arguement is going to be on 'intent'?

And verbal promises (with notes)...could get interesting and costly for SWA...which is already paying 1/2 the $100,000,000.00 cost of refitting the 88 AAI 717 to DAL Livery and interiors....

 

[FlyinGuy]

We have lawyers, CEO's, CFO's, not to mention all the financial advisors!!!

 

[madjack]

Yes we do, but we aren't the ones filing a legal action (DR)

 

[Britpilot]

So the arguement is going to be on 'intent'?

You had plenty of time to put that in writing and it wasn't done. It's not in the agreement. Definitely an uphill battle when a company has a business to run...and decisions to be made accordingly.

Not really. By that time it was just a case of take it or leave it.

 

[madjack]

"Not really. By that time it was just a case of take it or leave it."

So your beef with SWA is that:

1) you were verbally promised 717 seats (and bid accordingly)

2) you weren't given the time or opportunity by SWA to get that language in the agreement

I understand that if you bid on an aircraft that no longer exists, you would want the chance to rebid...but that would incur training costs to SWA...you want a piece of some of that money that SWA is saving by not allowing a rebid...well, since we are "all on the same team" you shouldn't have any problem sharing some of those gains with your SWA bros and sis's? Or maybe you would and maybe we are really not on the same team...on this issue...

 

[Ty Webb]

We get it, MJ . . . You didn't make the cutoff to upgrade into one of the Captain seats we agreed to give up, and so now you've convinced yourself that the rest of our 717 CA seats are "spoils" that you should be entitled to, and it's our MEC's fault, or SWA management, or our pilot group.

You're not going to convince anyone on our side of the partition that you're right, and you're not going to suddenly see it our way either, so what's the point of this exercise?

 

[humveedriver]

We get it, MJ . . . You didn't make the cutoff to upgrade into one of the Captain seats we agreed to give up, and so now you've convinced yourself that the rest of our 717 CA seats are "spoils" that you should be entitled to, and it's our MEC's fault, or SWA management, or our pilot group.

You're not going to convince anyone on our side of the partition that you're right, and you're not going to suddenly see it our way either, so what's the point of this incessant bickering?

No dude, he upgraded. He's just remembering why reserve sucks after getting his first choice for the last 6 years. He wants that line back!

 

[Britpilot]

"Not really. By that time it was just a case of take it or leave it."

So your beef with SWA is that:

1) you were verbally promised 717 seats (and bid accordingly)

2) you weren't given the time or opportunity by SWA to get that language in the agreement

I understand that if you bid on an aircraft that no longer exists, you would want the chance to rebid...but that would incur training costs to SWA...you want a piece of some of that money that SWA is saving by not allowing a rebid...well, since we are "all on the same team" you shouldn't have any problem sharing some of those gains with your SWA bros and sis's? Or maybe you would and maybe we are really not on the same team...on this issue...

Not my beef pal, I'm on the 73.
As far as training costs go, check out our training bid. Lots of 717 training so not sure where management is saving money in fact it's gonna cost them a few mil.
Trust me, we know we're not on the same team. That much has been made very clear.

 

[Citrusflyer]

"
I understand that if you bid on an aircraft that no longer exists, you would want the chance to rebid...but that would incur training costs to SWA...you want a piece of some of that money that SWA is saving by not allowing a rebid...well, since we are "all on the same team" you shouldn't have any problem sharing some of those gains with your SWA bros and sis's? Or maybe you would and maybe we are really not on the same team...on this issue...

You got me, chief ... care to 'splain the "saving on training cost" thing?

 

[madjack]

Ok, but as Ty implied, it isn't easy seeing the other guys perspective, but if I had bid with the understanding that the 717 was staying around and then it was taken away, then I would want to rebid (perhaps SWA 737 FO vs 717 CP) in order to get over the partition as soon as I could and get under the SWA CBA...


I think what Britpilot is saying that there will little or no training savings to SWA by NOT conducting another system rebid at this point (with 717s going away)...I thought that it would and perhaps I am wrong...in fact Britpilot is implying that SWA has or will spend millions on training as a result of the first system rebid on the AAI side...

I don't see where SWA is gaining by subleasing the 717, except in divesting itself of an extra airframe that does not fit its business plan...

My point is that wouldn't there have to be a significant gain to SWA for DR going forward to have merit?

What I am seeing here is the AAI pilots seeking CP retention slots and/or pay because the 717 went away...the retention slots and pay protection (in a zero sum world) will cost the SWA pilots...to me that seems unfair. The SWA side voted on SL10, not on verbal agreements between the AAI side and SWA.

From a pilot perspective the loss of the 717 airframe will hurt us all...it may aid the company financially in the long run, but a stronger SWA is in everyone's best interest...

As far as me personally, I just answered the phone when training called for upgrade. As a west coast (OAK) CP I am spared much of the pain of integration to date (that will change I know)...but I fly with many junior FOs (90-103k numbers) who spent years getting SWA mins, interviewed multiple times, bought types, sat in hiring pools and then had thousands of younger AAI pilots put ahead of them as a result of SL10...they are probably just as disillusioned and P.O.'d (if not more) than the AAI pilots...the good news is that the transitioned AAI pilots are professionals!