New AT to SWA training plan out

[GhettoBeechjet]

My thought is that they will not bring any pilots over the partition until they are needed on the SWA side. Until 2015 it's more cost effective to overstaff the AAI side of the operation. What happens on 1/1/2015 is what concerns me more. We might be overstaffed by as many as 900ish pilots and I can't the company keeping that kind of excess on the payroll.

 

[Just thinking]

"keeping that kind of excess on the payroll"..............................
That is a joke........... a grotesquely overstaffed IT department that struggles with what other companies do with one quarter of the staff accomplishes with ease..... how long has it taken to get a code share? How is that software update coming along? That's right... they had to go to an outside vendor for a product because the IT department could not get it done. Maintenance practices on the SWA side are adopting the AT methodologies for tracking. Of the stations where the SWA ramp personnel are doing the work I see almost twice the number or personnel with no improvement and in some cases a decrease in turn times and late pushes. Catering done with two people in the truck where AT did it with one. How about a culture committee (pom pom squad)?

Excess personnel on the payroll is a SWA thing and not an Airtran thing. Fat and gluttonous character from Austin Powers comes to mind and SWA better get on an exercise program because they are quickly losing sight of their feet.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

SWA LUVs GO people, ground ops people, Directors and VPs. Can't have enough of those. Pilots are a different story.

 

[texman]

I do feel the uncertainty on the AT side. I know it sucks! What a mess. I think our retirements are going to be used to meet the deadline. That sucks too. If so we can throw out SL 10 upgrade projections. Unless somebody has better idea how it will go down.

 

[scoreboardII]

Dude, if you saw two in a provo truck, someone was getting trained.

 

[StopNTSing]

What Scoreboard said.

JT, I don't know who you are, or whom you work for, but you don't know what you're talking about. Our ground ops have been chronically under-staffed ever since RX was implimented a few years ago. As for IT, yes, we may not have the best & brightest (probably because our mgmt is reluctant to pay competitive salaries to them), but you are the ONLY one I have ever heard accusing that dept of being over-staffed.

 

[redflyer65]

Maintenance practices on the SWA side are adopting the AT methodologies for tracking.

'New' maintenance tracking procedures started with the new -800 parts list and the prep for ETOPS cert. Had nothing to do with Airtran. Sorry.

 

[atldc9]

The mx program is called Trax, and the first guy to cross from AT to SWA at all was the VP of maintenance, because he was the Trax guru. Now he's a VP at SWA. Only 2 of our folks went VP to VP.

It's a chicken and egg thing- the 800 needed a mx program and Trax is supposedly pretty good and was here. AirTran had good experience with it, and it met a need, so it was used.

 

[scoreboardII]

Last point each turn only has two bodies per jet to chuck bags and drive the tug, if you see more, there is training going on.

 

[texman]

They do know the cost, it's your current contractual run-rate continuing on after the amendable date theoretically forever the way the NMB works today.

While this may be true, the new work rules will have a big play into getting the deal done.

 

[Lear70]

While this may be true, the new work rules will have a big play into getting the deal done.

That may well be true, but from a management perspective for us, let's take a look at what they want and what is going to happen moving forward for the next 3-5 years.

They don't like the cartel bidding and want rid of it. They don't seem to mind paying premium time to keep staffing down, but don't like the manipulating of the rules to exceed the max credit.

We're going to be overstaffed from 2015-2017 by as many as 450-500 people, dwindling slowly to break-even by 2017. Overstaffed means extra reserves which means more people to spread the extra flying to, thus minimizing the open time available at premium rates, thus eliminating the Cartel problem until staffing returns to normal.

They already have the relief they need from you to build red-eyes on with day flying, as well as other relief for international flying and re-defining the min day for those operations.

The only thing left is sick time issues and, arguably, you guys will want at least COLA raises in the next contract, but which would cost them more? Giving everyone a pay raise or the use of sick time that they don't like?

Honestly, I don't see an urgency to negotiate much before 2017. In fact, it may hurt them to give everyone raises right now as overstaffed as they're going to be, and the work rule changes they are looking for may well not matter as much being overstaffed until then.

I just don't see a rush from them to do anything. Could be wrong, but I think they like their costs where they are until the transition is done and staffing equalizes. Then again, I'm still new to your CBA and its costs, and there could be some other hidden reason they want to negotiate expeditiously. That said they don't seem to be in any hurry by the latest emails regarding slowing the pace of negotiations down...

 

[madjack]

"Could be wrong"

Lear, no way...as you said in another thread you are never wrong...

 

[FlyinGuy]

Lear,
I think you have wondered into territory that you do not know about. When it comes to premium time, the company is avoiding it at all costs. Yes that means they will spend more money to cover a trip to avoid paying premium. Instead of paying one pilot premium to fly a 3 day, they will split it up and pay 2-3 pilots straight time. Problem is the final trip pay is greater than what it would have cost to pay the one pilot premium. That is how they are currently operating.

As far as cartel's, the company could care less how a trip is covered. Pilots are the ones concerned about the few that are manipulating the "rules" to gain at the expense of their brothers.

Raises and sick calls are not comparable. Pay rates do not have a direct impact on sick calls. They claim that we have a higher sick rate than other airlines, so they are trying to deal with it by shining light and emphasizing coming to work.

As far as a new contract, we will continue to press the company to get it done.

 

[scoreboardII]

Pilot sick use is not an issue, that problem belongs to other work groups.

Lear, I don't understand your comment

Giving everyone a pay raise or the use of sick time that they don't like?

. Our sick time is contractual, if you need it, you use it, there is no "they don't like it" part of the equation.

FO sick rate: 6% (with mil trip drop included) Captain sick rate:8% (with almost no mil drop). Hows that compare to other airlines? Anyone? I don't know.

 

[ASADFW7]

Lear, you may be repeating what you have heard about SWA, and some of it is true but some of it is urban legend in how it impacts the company and pilot group. When you hear stuff, and repeat as you are in the know, with some of this information someone is snickering that you bought into so deeply. This isn't an insult, it is just an observation. Have a good day.

 

[Cruncher]

Flyin,

I think you have wondered into territory that you do not know about. When it comes to premium time, the company is avoiding it at all costs. Yes that means they will spend more money to cover a trip to avoid paying premium. Instead of paying one pilot premium to fly a 3 day, they will split it up and pay 2-3 pilots straight time. Problem is the final trip pay is greater than what it would have cost to pay the one pilot premium. That is how they are currently operating.

At the last round table with Chuck, this was brought up to him, he disagreed and challenged a pilot for proof. 10 minutes later, said challenged pilot printed out the trips showing how a "non-premium" trip was broke up and paid more in the long run. He was surprised, or is a good actor. Chuck said that'll stop (in the end the company wants to pay us as little as possible).

Though, I do think the company likes having guys spread out all over the system blocking 4 hours a day. Just think of the flexibility when the snow hits the fan?

 

[FlyinGuy]

Scheduling was given the directive to pay as little premium as possible. They are following orders. Will that change? Who knows.

 

[Lear70]

"Could be wrong"

Lear, no way...as you said in another thread you are never wrong...

Actually, that's one of my tag lines I've been saying for years. "Could be wrong... it's happened before."

Where did I say I was "Never wrong"? Direct quote stating EXACTLY that, please.

As to the others, you're exactly right, which is why I specifically said "Then again, I'm still new to your CBA..." I don't know what is going on, outside of the last information I heard which was SWA management putting negotiations on ice for now.

Scoreboard, what I meant was, which would cost the company more? Fixing some kind of perceived sick time or premium pay problem or some other work rule they want changed that will save them money? Or giving everyone a pay raise that would get the next contract passed?

With the company about to be overstaffed by several hundred people in the next couple years, if I were costing a contract, I'd see which would be the cheaper avenue and go with that. If it means stalling contract talks for 5-6 years while the staffing problem gets taken care of by attrition (which I agree with you 100% on how they plan to fix that, using retirements instead of growth), then that's what they'll do.

Mainly I'm responding to the idea that they want a new CBA so they would know their costs moving forward. I disagree with that, only insomuch as it is very likely cheaper to keep the labor rates where they are and kick the CBA down the road several years when they're about to be overstaffed than it is to have a new CBA now.

Unless you think they will win pay concessions? Whether it's a mix of work rules and pay that hides the concessions? In that case, I would agree that they'd want to get a new contract now. Otherwise, it just doesn't make sense.

 

[redflyer65]

You mean this part....


F. Base Protections
1. AirTran Pilots will be assigned to Atlanta for their initial vacancy bid at Southwest provided Atlanta vacancies are available.
2. If no Atlanta vacancies are available, newly transitioned AirTran Pilots will be awarded vacancy openings based on their Southwest seniority and normal Southwest vacancy rules.
3. Until September 27, 2020:
a. For Atlanta vacancies, those former AirTran Pilots in other Southwest domiciles with Atlanta as the higher vacancy bid in their current seat will be assigned to the same seat in Atlanta in seniority order prior to a Southwest Pilot being assigned to Atlanta. This protection is limited to 737 and 717 or similar narrow body aircraft types.
b. Former AirTran Pilots will not be displaced out of the Atlanta domicile by a Southwest pilot unless there is an overall reduction in the number of respective equipment seats system-wide

There was no way (as a SW pilot) that I could have bidded into Atlanta at all. Could they have downsized ATL? Maybe. But it was spelled out to be a 10 year ATL AAI fence. I flew with very senior SW CAs that were pissed about that language because they felt they should be able to go to ATL when they wanted. It wasn't written that way, and they were looking at an additional 10yrs to get there if that's what they bid.

All water under the bridge at this point. The MEC pushed for arbitration because in their mind, the money would be there anyway...so why not go for the brass ring (more seniority). It cost the line pilots at Airtran literally hundreds of thousands of dollars, probably more like several million. There was a huge monetary lose Lear, regardless of what your personal numbers are.

 

[Lear70]

Answered in another thread and off-topic anyway. We were talking about SWA negotiations and how there's no reason for mgmt to come to the table...