New AirTran TA Thread

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

All I know with BH spouting off, made a lot guys minds up the other day. Its very productive to let these guys talk, because it lets you know how bad it really is.

 

[FIREMAN]

Lear --"We're also giving up door close as the beginning of pay until wheels move. The MEC and NC have admitted that is, on average, a 3 minute concession per leg as well. The flight attendants have a "me, too" clause in their contract and if we give this up, they give it up unwillingly and they're pretty angry about it."

I think the door closed thing only comes into play if you over block. Do not get me wrong there are a lot of other items to vote NO on. In think you would be more creditable if you do not use three minutes for evey leg.

I also belive the 717 will be gone within five years to be replaced with E190/195. The 717s that were painted were done so under warranty due to some problem with the paint booth at Long Beach.

 

[-9Capt]

I hate to say I told you so....

We got exactly what we deserve.
This pilot group is a f*&kin' embarrassment to the profession. No idea how to behave during negotiations, not a clue. Unless the mindset changes around here, and we take this fight to the cockpit, nothing will change. Give me one reason why it should?

 

[PCL_128]

In think you would be more creditable if you do not use three minutes for evey leg.

That number comes directly from the NPA.

 

[FIREMAN]

Yes the NPA says 3 -max of 5 min. but only if you over block. If you underblock by more than the dwell time you get block. If you overblock by 5 but had 5 of dwell then you wood lose the time. What I was trying to get at is we need to be more upset about the "core block" the 4.5 cum day and RESV and scop.

However I think they (the company)are using scop to scare us into the 100 seat rate. If the 100 seat rate is any TA that is ratified the 717 WILL BE GONE.

 

[CAL EWR B737]

Lear,

Thanks for the info I'll check the other thread. How many seats are in the 717 is that considered small jet? Is your NMB mediator still Mike Tossi? I worked with Mike everyday for four months in 2001. At the time he was the USAIRWAYS PHL CA Rep he was kind enough to volunteer to spend every day in the crew room to convince the CAL pilots to vote in ALPA. He was former PEX and CAL before heading to AIRWAYS in 88. I know when I knew him he was extremely labor friendly can't imagine him not being so in his new position with the NMB.

I posted the new 717/737 pay rates on another thread, take a look through the last 4 or 5 pages on the Majors forum and you'll find it.

A couple details that may or may not have been in the other posts:

We're giving up our pay based on customer schedules and going to a 3 month average from the previous year of actual block. The MEC and NC have admitted this is approximately 6 minutes we lose per leg (although they keep dropping that number every time they talk about it because people are so angry).

We're also giving up door close as the beginning of pay until wheels move. The MEC and NC have admitted that is, on average, a 3 minute concession per leg as well. The flight attendants have a "me, too" clause in their contract and if we give this up, they give it up unwillingly and they're pretty angry about it.

So, that's 9 minutes per leg times my average of 45 legs per month (3 legs per day * 15 days per month) = 405 minutes, or 6 hours and 45 minutes (6.7) in actual hours of pay I lose every month from those two rules which, on an 85 hour credit line, is a 7.8% pay cut.

The actual hourly wage increases average 9% for most seniority ranges (some as high as 13%), so the total pay increase drops to only 2%-6%.

Not to mention, the F/O wages at Date Of Signing are STILL among the lowest in the major airline industry for the equipment we fly (in the bottom 3), the company got rid of the 13% override pay for the 737-800, and the SJ pay rates are the lowest in the Major Airline industry as well, as is Scope (no Majors have as loose of Scope restrictions as this proposes, nor do they have SJ rates this low).

We gave back an AWFUL lot to get a 2-6% pay raise... that might go away if they start getting rid of the 717's and replace them with EMB-195's.

 

[AFcitrus]

Yes the NPA says 3 -max of 5 min. but only if you over block. If you underblock by more than the dwell time you get block. If you overblock by 5 but had 5 of dwell then you wood lose the time. What I was trying to get at is we need to be more upset about the "core block" the 4.5 cum day and RESV and scop.

However I think they (the company)are using scop to scare us into the 100 seat rate. If the 100 seat rate is any TA that is ratified the 717 WILL BE GONE.

I agree Fireman-- We would only lose pay on those legs that we overblock. But here is the "kicker". Since our "core block" time would reduce scheduled blocks by an average of 6 minutes per leg, we will be overblocking a lot more legs than we currently do. Subsequently that door time loss will become a much larger number than under the current contract.

I do agree with you though, the "core block" and 4.5 hr average is where we are going to lose a bundle.

By the way, can any lawyers tell me the difference between the terms "shall" and "will" when used in contracts. I've always heard that the only legally binding term is "shall". If you look at this TA it has a lot of sentences that say "The pilot shall..." when refering to parts of the agreement that hurt us.

On the other hand in sentences that restrict the company the sentence states " The company will..." This is not exclusively the case but it happens enough that I noticed and I wondered if we should be making a bigger deal out of it.

 

[CAL EWR B737]

Eagle,

Thanks for the additional information. I agree with you 100%, pay and benefits is just one part of the contract. Quality of life at work and at home are just as or even more important. I am really impressed you guys are trying to protect your new hires, something I am very embarrassed we didn't do with our POS 02.

I am with you 100% if there is anything CAL ALPA can do for you guys please let us know. If and when you picket please let us know and we will publicize for our pilots. We have many pilots who commute from ATL and I am sure many would like to show support and join the picketing.

Hang tough!

Frats,

Jayson Baron
CAL ALPA STRIKE PREPAREDNESS CHAIRMAN

First of all, thanks for asking. This is not just about pay rates (although they could be better). This is about horrible work rules and giving back work rules from the previous contract. I think sometime we get too focused just on a hourly pay rate. This contract is about not giving up scope (current scope of 70 seats or less) nothing more, protecting our reserves, and fair first year pay. What the hell is market conditions and who sets them? That is what our company wants to do for our new hires!(and they have to pay for lodging while in training) Totally unacceptable. Oh by the way, this contract is totally concessionary: They want us to fly to Mexico, Canada, and the Carribean at domestic pay rates. Last time I checked, those were international destinations and I need a passport to go in and out of these countries. Reserves doing Ready Reserves after they complete a trip, are you kidding me, we gave them this. Sick-call may have to provide a note. (folks read section 10 para. C part 7) In questionable cases? What is questionable and what establishes that? I can pick this thing apart, this TA is not in the best interest of this pilot group. The language is too vague. Why hasn't the union set a place and time for road shows two weeks after a TA has been out? It is a waste of time to go in the office and listen to those guys try to sell this thing. Lets get in a neutral location where we can look you straight in the eye and ask, how is this helping this pilot group. Give us a hotel conference room or the NPA office and set a time. These NC members are scared and very defensive, because guys here are not impressed with this garbage! I wont even talk about, the loss of starting pay when the door closes, loosing platinum ppo health insurance, and no stock options or profit sharing. What have these guys been doing for over two years?

 

[rumrunnr03]

Ta

It's very, very quiet and guarded. No one wants to be the lone standout in the crew room when there are, at any given time, 2-5 union reps across the hall wandering over to get people to talk to and having "info sessions" in the Crew Room (I'm currently sitting at one of the tables in the crew room with a bunch of "VOTE NO" stickers spread out on the table in front of me - the union guys don't look amused).

Will it be voted down? I think so, but it's absolutely CRUCIAL we get accurate counter-information to the pilot group at the road shows. They're selling this thing through fear and, quite honestly, disinformation. I watched one of the NPA guys in here earlier today arguing with a Captain about one of the sections. The CA was showing a section to the union rep and the union rep was sitting there actually saying "That's not true." The guy was pointing it out in black and white, and the union rep just said, "If it says that, we'll fix it, don't worry."

EXCUSE ME??!! When, exactly, are you planning on fixing it? 3 1/2 years from now when we re-open Section 6?

If we get enough info out and people ask the hard questions and don't get satisfying answers, I think we can bury this thing easily. If we don't, it'll be WAY too close for comfort - there's enough people scattered around (mostly mid- to senior CA's) who are firmly enough in the "YES" category to worry me that they'll be heard and believed, even though the T.A. speaks for itself in no uncertain terms.


Stay tuned. The only way that will happen is if this thing goes down in flames, and I don't think you'll see the whole BOD removed/replaced, that would take WAY too much time to spool up unless they're replaced with highly-experienced union guys and there's too much bad blood between the last group of NPA leaders and the people on property to do that.

I do believe the NC will go away, as will probably AP. When the TA results are out, you'll see a bigger push for recalls if it's voted down.

Lear70,
Ask anyone of the Comair guys about our previous 2 concessionary LOA's and the results. They will have allot of insight on this TA. Virtually identical. Good luck. We are all watching.
How can I get one of your stickers?

 

[Wesb737fo]

Yes the NPA says 3 -max of 5 min. but only if you over block. If you underblock by more than the dwell time you get block. If you overblock by 5 but had 5 of dwell then you wood lose the time. What I was trying to get at is we need to be more upset about the "core block" the 4.5 cum day and RESV and scop.

However I think they (the company)are using scop to scare us into the 100 seat rate. If the 100 seat rate is any TA that is ratified the 717 WILL BE GONE.

Fireman,

I think you are right, looking at my past schedules it looks like more credit time lost due to the "4.5 ave". (around 2 hours for ave and :40 - 1hour on the losing door to door. ). Around 3 hours total.

Has anyone crunched numbers on how the new way the company determines credit will drop credit values? Assuming that using ave. block instead of published schedule will be a smaller number. Where did the six minutes per leg come from?

Assuming cost of living around 3% and work rule changes taking a minimum of 3% ( the best I can figure right now), then I would be getting around a 6% raise. When I was polled, I believe I said I wouldn't even consider something that low for compensation.

Don't get me started on scope. 20% of ASM for subs means ballpark 15-20 86 seaters and another 15-20 for 70 seaters. Maybe 40 airplanes.

A 6% pay raise for relaxing scope, giving up reserve pay, door to door, and a 4 min day.

Someone will have to show me the numbers on how this is a better deal.

 

[j41driver]

Someone will have to show me the numbers on how this is a better deal.

If anyone could do that they'd be lying to you.

 

[Lear70]

I think the door closed thing only comes into play if you over block. Do not get me wrong there are a lot of other items to vote NO on. In think you would be more creditable if you do not use three minutes for evey leg.

That very well might be true.

There's a group of us putting our own "bulletpoint" presentation together AGAINST the T.A. to take to ops, road shows, etc, with specific contract section references to people can look it up and verify it for themselves without having to dig for it.

One of the other guys is doing Section 4, I'll ask and make sure that the door closed thing isn't a double whammy and, if it is, what situations specifically does it apply to or not based on look-back schedules.

We blocked almost even on this last trip (including the overages and underages for each leg). The problem is we don't know what the rolling 3-month average is if they went to it now (core block), so we don't know how to cost analyze it. If it goes down substantially, we will end up over-blocking on most of our legs and the 3 minute door WILL apply.

This is why I'm not doing Section 4 - too much that I just don't know that some of the other guys might be better equipped to find out.

I also belive the 717 will be gone within five years to be replaced with E190/195. The 717s that were painted were done so under warranty due to some problem with the paint booth at Long Beach.

I believe you are correct. There's just too much activity between Embraer and AAI management as of late to ignore. More and more rumors from senior management and the people in the training center saying the Embraers are coming sooner rather than later.

 

[Lear70]

I agree Fireman-- We would only lose pay on those legs that we overblock. But here is the "kicker". Since our "core block" time would reduce scheduled blocks by an average of 6 minutes per leg, we will be overblocking a lot more legs than we currently do. Subsequently that door time loss will become a much larger number than under the current contract.

This happened at my last carrier,,, we went to "trip value" which was this 3-month average look back from the previous year as a "core block" number. Same thing, different name.

We overblocked on almost every leg. Religiously. And the company didn't care as long as D-0 and A-14 from the DOT schedule was met.

The way I see it for pay, as best I can calculate, is that it's a loss either way:

If we under-block a pairing, then we lose however much we underblock down to the "average" of 6 minutes.

If we over-block a pairing, we lose up to 5 minutes each leg from door close (an average of 3 minutes each leg).

On my last trip, I overblocked 5 legs out of 11. The average over-block was 23 minutes or about 4 minutes per leg. Pretty close to the 3 minute average the NPA said you'd lose from door close.

The average under-block was 43 minutes for those 6 legs, or about 7 minutes per leg. Again, VERY close to the NPA average of 6 minutes lost per leg due to going to "core block".

Adding those up (not cumulative, just using the ACTUAL number of minutes per leg), I came up to a loss of 51 minutes of pay for this last trip out of a total credit of 23:50 for a 4 day. No other trip or duty rig applied as each day was just under 11 hours of duty and no other average day or otherwise would apply (although we did sit twice in MCO for up to 3 hours on 2 of the 4 days).

That's just shy of a 4% loss in pay due to work rules. On 2nd year pay, my straight salary increases by 13%, so I actually would have only got a 9% increase in W-2 pay which is, basically, COLA from when the contract became amendable.

And I have to give up all the other work rules, Scope concessions, and everything else to get that?

Not to mention, in some years, 5% was all the wages went up, so for THOSE seniority pilots, you're signing for a 1% wage.

Yeah, THAT'S intelligent.

VOTE NO!

 

[Lear70]

Lear70,
Ask anyone of the Comair guys about our previous 2 concessionary LOA's and the results. They will have allot of insight on this TA. Virtually identical. Good luck. We are all watching.
How can I get one of your stickers?

Email me your mailing address at [email protected] and I'll drop some in the mail to you - have to make a mail run today anyway for the other stickers that need to go out.

 

[-9Capt]

What I was trying to get at is we need to be more upset about the "core block" the 4.5 cum day and RESV and scop..

For once, I agree with you.