New AirTran TA Thread

[Lear70]

The BK era is over... when our companies start making money you don't want a BK era TA...

BINGO!

Give that man a cigar.

Incidentally, pilots could get a 50% raise and it would only affect CASM by about 1/2 of 1% (that's .005). Straight from ALPA's EF&A...

I've been reading this thing and will post my notes tomorrow, but there are a LOT of small concessions all the way through the thing and a lot of other stuff they've been telling you about Scope restrictions that are incorrect. There's also NO letter to bind Holdings to the Merger language included with the contract nor does the contract reference such a letter as the Scope section does (not to mention the Scope letter reads pretty uselessly anyway) so, unless they hid it elsewhere,,,

Bad, bad juju. My stickers came in, I'll be in ops from 1430 to 1830 today showing some people the finer points of the T.A. the NPA doesn't want you to notice.

VOTE NO!

p.s. As far as "fixing it", not agreeing to the vast majority of what the company proposed back in 2005 would be a nice start. Have you read the two side-by-side? The company got almost everything they asked for.

 

[BFL370]

Eagle,
BINGO! You get it.

 

[Citrusflyer]

There is some good news coming from this TA, and the completely amateurish way the entire BOD has handled it from beginning to end….

In my many years here I have NEVER seen this pilot group so unified! The argument on line is not how hard it’s going to go down, but really what should happen after it does.

 

[Kharma Police]

There is some good news coming from this TA, and the completely amateurish way the entire BOD has handled it from beginning to end….

In my many years here I have NEVER seen this pilot group so unified! The argument on line is not how hard it’s going to go down, but really what should happen after it does.

The NPA will try and spin this by saying, "it's part of our grand strategy!!! We put out this piece of crap TA to get you guys unified for the real TA!!!"

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

However, after the holiday raping, age 65 crap, etc.

Don't forget the joke that SAP II has turned into.

even if we vote no, I have no confidence that they will actually be honest about the result. Who's to stop them from saying, " Oh yeah, it passed 65/35"? We'll get stuck with this turd even though we won't be able to find anyone who actually voted for it. How can anyone sit there with a straight face and say this isn't a concessionary contract? That's just an insult and a slap in the face, and not from the company, but from "one of us".

VOTE NO!

So, wait, you don't trust them? You think they might fix the vote? I think they did just that on the age 60 stuff) They seem to think Wilson polling is more accurate than an actual vote, so maybe they will use Wilson for ratification voting. They'll just survey 200 pilots, after all, it's accurate to within 3%, right? uke: I can't believe these guys will return to fly the line. How can they look anyone in the eye?

 

[Ace McCoy]

What is the mood of the group. I haven't really talked to a lot of people and all of us on FI agree it should be voted down. Will this thing be voted down?

Also, is there any chance we can get a national union like ALPA or the Teamsters in here? At the very least what can I do as an individual to get the BOD and NC recalled?

 

[CAL EWR B737]

For a CAL outsider any chance you could post some of the pay rates? If it isn't good enough vote NO! It's time we take back our industry.

I am the Strike Prep Chairman at CAL and we are preparing for early openers in a few months (maybe if the company agrees to our protocol agreement). We are looking for a FedEx type of contract.

FYI We got sold a bunch of BS from our former negotiating committee and MEC leadership for our POS concessionary contract 02. Now we all regret it we have to live under this POS and some of our former N/C work for management or are trying too and no body talks to the former MEC leadership. Hang tough and don't let anyone talk you into anything it ain't good enough VOTE NO!

My two cents.

 

[Diesel-9]

zzzzz

 

[Lear70]

For a CAL outsider any chance you could post some of the pay rates? If it isn't good enough vote NO! It's time we take back our industry.

I posted the new 717/737 pay rates on another thread, take a look through the last 4 or 5 pages on the Majors forum and you'll find it.

A couple details that may or may not have been in the other posts:

We're giving up our pay based on customer schedules and going to a 3 month average from the previous year of actual block. The MEC and NC have admitted this is approximately 6 minutes we lose per leg (although they keep dropping that number every time they talk about it because people are so angry).

We're also giving up door close as the beginning of pay until wheels move. The MEC and NC have admitted that is, on average, a 3 minute concession per leg as well. The flight attendants have a "me, too" clause in their contract and if we give this up, they give it up unwillingly and they're pretty angry about it.

So, that's 9 minutes per leg times my average of 45 legs per month (3 legs per day * 15 days per month) = 405 minutes, or 6 hours and 45 minutes (6.7) in actual hours of pay I lose every month from those two rules which, on an 85 hour credit line, is a 7.8% pay cut.

The actual hourly wage increases average 9% for most seniority ranges (some as high as 13%), so the total pay increase drops to only 2%-6%.

Not to mention, the F/O wages at Date Of Signing are STILL among the lowest in the major airline industry for the equipment we fly (in the bottom 3), the company got rid of the 13% override pay for the 737-800, and the SJ pay rates are the lowest in the Major Airline industry as well, as is Scope (no Majors have as loose of Scope restrictions as this proposes, nor do they have SJ rates this low).

We gave back an AWFUL lot to get a 2-6% pay raise... that might go away if they start getting rid of the 717's and replace them with EMB-195's.

Here's those rates:

SMALL JET PAY 78-100 Seats


F/O ………….. DOS +0 ……….. DOS +1 ………… DOS +2 ……………. DOS +3
Year 1 ……….. $ Market ……… $ Market ……….. $ Market ……………. $ Market
Year 2 ……….. $ 47.22 ……….. $ 47.93 …………. $ 48.65 ……………… $ 49.38
Year 3 ……….. $ 49.79 ……….. $ 50.54 …………. $ 51.29 ……………… $ 52.06
Year 4 ……….. $ 53.31 ……….. $ 54.11 …………. $ 54.92 ……………… $ 55.75
Year 5 ……….. $ 54.23 ……….. $ 55.05 …………. $ 55.87 ……………… $ 56.71
Year 6 ……….. $ 55.10 ……….. $ 55.92 …………. $ 56.76 ……………… $ 57.61
Year 7 ……….. $ 55.97 ……….. $ 56.81 …………. $ 57.67 ……………… $ 58.53
Year 8 ……….. $ 56.87 ……….. $ 57.72 …………. $ 58.59 ……………… $ 59.47
Year 9 ……….. $ 57.77 ……….. $ 58.63 …………. $ 59.51 ……………… $ 60.41
Year 10 ……… $ 58.69 ……….. $ 59.57 …………. $ 60.46 ……………… $ 61.37
Year 11 ……… $ 59.25 ……….. $ 60.14 …………. $ 61.04 ……………… $ 61.96

CA ………….. DOS +0 ……….. DOS +1 ………… DOS +2 …………….. DOS +3
Year 1 ………. $ 84.39 ………… $ 85.66 ………… $ 86.94 ……………… $ 88.24
Year 2 ………. $ 85.86 ………… $ 87.15 ………… $ 88.46 ……………… $ 89.78
Year 3 ………. $ 87.35 ………… $ 88.66 ………… $ 89.99 ……………… $ 91.34
Year 4 ………. $ 88.85 ………… $ 90.18 ………… $ 91.54 ……………… $ 92.91
Year 5 ………. $ 90.39 ………… $ 91.75 ………… $ 93.12 ……………… $ 94.52
Year 6 ………. $ 91.83 ………… $ 93.21 ………… $ 94.61 ……………… $ 96.02
Year 7 ………. $ 93.29 ………… $ 94.69 ………… $ 96.11 ……………… $ 97.55
Year 8 ………. $ 94.78 ………… $ 96.20 ………… $ 97.64 ……………… $ 99.11
Year 9 ………. $ 96.28 ………… $ 97.72 ………… $ 99.19 …………….. $ 100.68
Year 10 ……... $ 97.81 ………… $ 99.28 ……….. $ 100.77 …………….. $ 102.28
Year 11 …….. $ 98.75 ………..$ 100.23 ……….. $ 101.73 ……………. $ 103.26
Year 12 …….. $ 99.69 ………. $ 101.19 ……….. $ 102.70 ……………. $ 104.24

 

[Lear70]

What is the mood of the group. I haven't really talked to a lot of people and all of us on FI agree it should be voted down. Will this thing be voted down?

It's very, very quiet and guarded. No one wants to be the lone standout in the crew room when there are, at any given time, 2-5 union reps across the hall wandering over to get people to talk to and having "info sessions" in the Crew Room (I'm currently sitting at one of the tables in the crew room with a bunch of "VOTE NO" stickers spread out on the table in front of me - the union guys don't look amused).

Will it be voted down? I think so, but it's absolutely CRUCIAL we get accurate counter-information to the pilot group at the road shows. They're selling this thing through fear and, quite honestly, disinformation. I watched one of the NPA guys in here earlier today arguing with a Captain about one of the sections. The CA was showing a section to the union rep and the union rep was sitting there actually saying "That's not true." The guy was pointing it out in black and white, and the union rep just said, "If it says that, we'll fix it, don't worry."

EXCUSE ME??!! When, exactly, are you planning on fixing it? 3 1/2 years from now when we re-open Section 6?

If we get enough info out and people ask the hard questions and don't get satisfying answers, I think we can bury this thing easily. If we don't, it'll be WAY too close for comfort - there's enough people scattered around (mostly mid- to senior CA's) who are firmly enough in the "YES" category to worry me that they'll be heard and believed, even though the T.A. speaks for itself in no uncertain terms.

Also, is there any chance we can get a national union like ALPA or the Teamsters in here? At the very least what can I do as an individual to get the BOD and NC recalled?

Stay tuned. The only way that will happen is if this thing goes down in flames, and I don't think you'll see the whole BOD removed/replaced, that would take WAY too much time to spool up unless they're replaced with highly-experienced union guys and there's too much bad blood between the last group of NPA leaders and the people on property to do that.

I do believe the NC will go away, as will probably AP. When the TA results are out, you'll see a bigger push for recalls if it's voted down.

 

[Eagle757shark]

For a CAL outsider any chance you could post some of the pay rates? If it isn't good enough vote NO! It's time we take back our industry.

I am the Strike Prep Chairman at CAL and we are preparing for early openers in a few months (maybe if the company agrees to our protocol agreement). We are looking for a FedEx type of contract.

FYI We got sold a bunch of BS from our former negotiating committee and MEC leadership for our POS concessionary contract 02. Now we all regret it we have to live under this POS and some of our former N/C work for management or are trying too and no body talks to the former MEC leadership. Hang tough and don't let anyone talk you into anything it ain't good enough VOTE NO!

My two cents.

First of all, thanks for asking. This is not just about pay rates (although they could be better). This is about horrible work rules and giving back work rules from the previous contract. I think sometime we get too focused just on a hourly pay rate. This contract is about not giving up scope (current scope of 70 seats or less) nothing more, protecting our reserves, and fair first year pay. What the hell is market conditions and who sets them? That is what our company wants to do for our new hires!(and they have to pay for lodging while in training) Totally unacceptable. Oh by the way, this contract is totally concessionary: They want us to fly to Mexico, Canada, and the Carribean at domestic pay rates. Last time I checked, those were international destinations and I need a passport to go in and out of these countries. Reserves doing Ready Reserves after they complete a trip, are you kidding me, we gave them this. Sick-call may have to provide a note. (folks read section 10 para. C part 7) In questionable cases? What is questionable and what establishes that? I can pick this thing apart, this TA is not in the best interest of this pilot group. The language is too vague. Why hasn't the union set a place and time for road shows two weeks after a TA has been out? It is a waste of time to go in the office and listen to those guys try to sell this thing. Lets get in a neutral location where we can look you straight in the eye and ask, how is this helping this pilot group. Give us a hotel conference room or the NPA office and set a time. These NC members are scared and very defensive, because guys here are not impressed with this garbage! I wont even talk about, the loss of starting pay when the door closes, loosing platinum ppo health insurance, and no stock options or profit sharing. What have these guys been doing for over two years?

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

Two things:

1. Small jets are coming if we have a new pay scale for them. EMB 190/195 WILL replace 717, make no mistake about it...why do you think they stopped repainting 717s to new paintjob?

2. Will they use every opportunity to sit us during a trip?...YES

I guarantee that if you look closely, every day during certain times (historical delay times) we have a crew sitting at every station for 3-4 hours (from BWI to MLI to EWR to FLL to ICT and so on). Why? To allow schedule recovery if things go bad with delays. Company been using all of us on sort of "reserve" and new 4.5 average is there to make it cheaper for them.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

...why do you think they stopped repainting 717s to new paintjob?

When did they stop doing that?

 

[Wesb737fo]

I posted the new 717/737 pay rates on another thread, take a look through the last 4 or 5 pages on the Majors forum and you'll find it.

A couple details that may or may not have been in the other posts:

We're giving up our pay based on customer schedules and going to a 3 month average from the previous year of actual block. The MEC and NC have admitted this is approximately 6 minutes we lose per leg (although they keep dropping that number every time they talk about it because people are so angry).

We're also giving up door close as the beginning of pay until wheels move. The MEC and NC have admitted that is, on average, a 3 minute concession per leg as well. The flight attendants have a "me, too" clause in their contract and if we give this up, they give it up unwillingly and they're pretty angry about it.

Hey guys,

Just got back from a trip and went through my past schedule and saw that on 14 out of 38 legs, I blocked over schedule. Accounting for the new rules, I would lose :42 (on a/c movement..assuming 3 minutes/leg) and 1:18 (on the 4:30 ave. day) for a total of 2 hours of credit.

If this happens every month then, with the new pay rate I would see 11.1% instead of the 13.45% increase in hourly rates. Doesn't seem like much of a drop unless, if what you are saying is true, is that the credit will be determined on a 3 mo. ave. from the previous year and this will drop that 11.1% raise even further! Wow! Very subtle but important fact that is hard to see.

 

[newnan]

It is a waste of time to go in the office and listen to those guys try to sell this thing. Lets get in a neutral location where we can look you straight in the eye and ask, how is this helping this pilot group. Give us a hotel conference room or the NPA office and set a time.


Eagle,

I think that was Lear's point. We need to be asking these questions any time we see them, no matter who is around. That will have the most effect on the people that are standing around, listening, and are now given a new view point that raises questions and they'll be asking questions themselves.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

All I know with BH spouting off, made a lot guys minds up the other day. Its very productive to let these guys talk, because it lets you know how bad it really is.

 

[FIREMAN]

Lear --"We're also giving up door close as the beginning of pay until wheels move. The MEC and NC have admitted that is, on average, a 3 minute concession per leg as well. The flight attendants have a "me, too" clause in their contract and if we give this up, they give it up unwillingly and they're pretty angry about it."

I think the door closed thing only comes into play if you over block. Do not get me wrong there are a lot of other items to vote NO on. In think you would be more creditable if you do not use three minutes for evey leg.

I also belive the 717 will be gone within five years to be replaced with E190/195. The 717s that were painted were done so under warranty due to some problem with the paint booth at Long Beach.

 

[-9Capt]

I hate to say I told you so....

We got exactly what we deserve.
This pilot group is a f*&kin' embarrassment to the profession. No idea how to behave during negotiations, not a clue. Unless the mindset changes around here, and we take this fight to the cockpit, nothing will change. Give me one reason why it should?

 

[PCL_128]

In think you would be more creditable if you do not use three minutes for evey leg.

That number comes directly from the NPA.

 

[FIREMAN]

Yes the NPA says 3 -max of 5 min. but only if you over block. If you underblock by more than the dwell time you get block. If you overblock by 5 but had 5 of dwell then you wood lose the time. What I was trying to get at is we need to be more upset about the "core block" the 4.5 cum day and RESV and scop.

However I think they (the company)are using scop to scare us into the 100 seat rate. If the 100 seat rate is any TA that is ratified the 717 WILL BE GONE.