New AGE limit discussion

[cldsfr79]

I love the guys that state "it's all about the young guys saying get out of my seat". Well, for all of you in the left seat, somebody got out of "your seat" so you could upgrade and you had an age 60 rule to help you in your career. Now that your time is up, you are looking for over time in the game of life and your also telling everyone else around you how greedy they are for asking you to leave.

But at least there is an age limit in part 121. Be it 65 or if they push it to 67 or what ever.

In the fractionals, where I live, it is fly til you die.

And where I'm at we have lost 5 guys (to death) in the last few months. I'm sorry if I sound callus, but it moved me up the list. A. I didn't know them and B. since guys wont retire, and the company is done growing, death is the only way I make it up the list.

Sorry.

 

[Flopgut]

Of course I own my own airplane, doesn't everybody? and yes I had my own company, 20 employees, $3.5M in sales, what does that to do with anything?

As far as the "Get out of my seat", of course you do not own it, but your rights to it are pretty clear cut via the union seniority list. Old guys gets kicked out, you move up to that seat.

BTW Wave patience? If patience is defined by righteous indignation and personal attacks, then it may be true

Regarding employees: Did you ever have two that could not get along? And one of those two come to you and want the other fired because they had somehow formulated the idea that they were more important than the other? I had that happen; I fired both of them and went back to doing everything myself. It was the older more experienced guy that wanted the other fired and I could not believe how entitlied the guy acted. All I did was hire them in the same manner, I didn't adopt them. I needed them equally, so to get rid of one was the same as both. (This was a very small mx shop and they were both better off elsewhere. They found other A&P jobs quickly)

I'm reminded of that experience as I look at things today. Here we are at the end of a 5 year boost the old guys were just so sure they were entitled to, and they still can't bow out with any dignity. My employer has been around 80 years, thousands have come before them and many thousands will come after them. Yet, they feel like they "own" the place?!

As far as owning an airplane: I think it's a valuable experience as a pilot to own an airplane. Find one, inspect it, insure it, register it, hangar it, buy the fuel for it, get trained in it, have it annualed etc, etc. Or even go out and put one on 135. Have a certificate, get the manuals, be an air carrier and corporation. Have shareholders and officers. If one does all that, THEN its "their" seat. Short of that, the "get out of my seat" mantra is completely foolish. Especially considering they hijacked rightful seniority progression to get where they are. These guys don't "own" a seat. They own a regulation.[Fair treatment for experienced pilots] A regulation written by a crooked politician and a marginal union leader that was perhaps the most greedy act of entitlement in our history.

 

[CapnVegetto]

A more elegant solution would be to scrap the seniority system altogether, which is the biggest problem that airline pilots have today.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

A more elegant solution would be to scrap the seniority system altogether, which is the biggest problem that airline pilots have today.

Although I do agree that the seniority system has its flaws, it is still the best system to accommodate all kinds of personalities and skill levels, in the contract world for example where there is no seniority system per say, at least not as it is in the US, you see some people that thrive in that environment and progress quickly, but individuals that are introverted or not necessarily type A people in the cockpit, tend to struggle a lot more in this type of system and I think is unfair sometimes because the fact that you are the quiet type, doesn't mean you can't make a good pilot.

 

[Flopgut]

Although I do agree that the seniority system has its flaws, it is still the best system to accommodate all kinds of personalities and skill levels.

Uh, is that the business we are in, or should be in? Accomodating the very old and the obtuse/introverted as a firstmost goal? Is that how companies should be run?

Example: Flight Attendants. The senior ones at my airline are very old (past normal retirement age), most don't take care of their appearance anymore, and their personalities are horrible. Now, seniority is working GREAT for them, but how's that going to ultimately affect the business? Soon, we won't be able to sell against airlines in your part of the world for the simple fact no customer wants to put up with our FAs.

 

[outerlimits]

Uh, is that the business we are in, or should be in? Accomodating the very old and the obtuse/introverted as a firstmost goal? Is that how companies should be run?

Example: Flight Attendants. The senior ones at my airline are very old (past normal retirement age), most don't take care of their appearance anymore, and their personalities are horrible. Now, seniority is working GREAT for them, but how's that going to ultimately affect the business? Soon, we won't be able to sell against airlines in your part of the world for the simple fact no customer wants to put up with our FAs.

I never agree with anything flop says, but this I do agree with.

 

[flyboyike]

Uh, is that the business we are in, or should be in? Accomodating the very old and the obtuse/introverted as a firstmost goal? Is that how companies should be run?

Apparently, that is exactly the business we're in. Not only that, but we should also be deeply grateful to the old and decrepit for the fact that they exist and doubly grateful for stealing our career prospects.

Oops, there I go being disrespectful again. Lord, I apologize for that and be with the starving pygmees of New Guinea.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Uh, is that the business we are in, or should be in? Accomodating the very old and the obtuse/introverted as a firstmost goal? Is that how companies should be run?

My point had nothing to do with cabin attendants or age Flopgut, i was just bringing up the fact that in the alternative merit system, there are a lot of opportunities to trump the progress of an individual based on subjective and political reasons than in the current seniority system that is being used here in the US.

 

[Flopgut]

My point had nothing to do with cabin attendants or age Flopgut.

K. Well, where I work, the part of the world actually affected by all this, the part of the world that this thread pertains to, age is the issue. And cabin attendants are a perfect example of how screwed up things are going to get if we keep raising the age and factor ZERO merit into the equation.

If you think merit is flawed, why don't you go into your superior's office and let them know how you feel? Let them know what your thesis is on who should be hired and promoted. Let me know how that goes.

Edit: Forgot, I had a question for you: Do you fly with guys who have had heart attacks? Or have had both knees replaced? I do. You wouldn't pick these guys for ABAs in an evac scenario, but they are flying the airplane. We just had one die in the customs line in SJO.

 

[SIG600]

A more elegant solution would be to scrap the seniority system altogether, which is the biggest problem that airline pilots have today.

Like dumb said, how do you move up? Theoretically everyone should be operating a/c to the same sheet of music, every single time. There is no individualism in the cockpit and everyone's performance should be "standard." So from there how do you decide whose a 747 captain and whose a Mad dog FO?