New AGE limit discussion

[Dumb Pilot]

K. Well, where I work, the part of the world actually affected by all this, the part of the world that this thread pertains to, age is the issue. And cabin attendants are a perfect example of how screwed up things are going to get if we keep raising the age and factor ZERO merit into the equation.

If you think merit is flawed, why don't you go into your superior's office and let them know how you feel? Let them know what your thesis is on who should be hired and promoted. Let me know how that goes.

We managed to have a very professional exchange in the other thread about our ideas without the need for unnecessary sarcastic remarks, and as a result we came to a lot of common points there, I'm sure we can manage to do it again.

Both systems have their advantages and disadvantages, I have managed to thrive in the contract world and I like the flexibility that it provides since I can take my experience and not have the necessity to start at the bottom, at 47 starting at the bottom is just not an interesting perspective and I too have been a casualty of both the raising of the retirement age and the inevitable bad consequences of the seniority system as we know it in the US, as a result I had to look for other opportunities beyond our borders
But the fact that I have thrived doesn't prevent me from observing how others that I have flown with haven't been able to progress into command positions, some of it is airmanship of course but some of it is plain and simple personality, that is one of the flaws that I find in the merit system, flaws that I have indeed discussed with my superiors when I have tried to advocate for these particular guys that I though were deserving of a second chance (not sure if you wanted to know or is was just an attempt to amp the sarcasm) the seniority system does have an advantage there I believe since the opportunity will be based primarily on the individual's performance, and although it is impossible to not have any politics play a part, under the seniority system there are more constraints.
Now I totally agree with you that the seniority system has some flaws that are in detriment to the airlines, you sited the example of the cabin attendants, some of them quite frankly can't perform the ultimate duty they are there to perform which is the handling of the cabin during an emergency, that is why I think that the medical and physical fitness standards should be brought in line with the rest of the world, there is a level of physical and mental abilities that should be met by both pilots and cabin attendants. Another disadvantage that I see is that employees have no incentive to advance since they just keep getting pay hikes based on time served and not on productivity, that is why you see individuals that have been rampers for 40 years at an airline, there is no incentive for that person to gain an education or expertise within the company because there is no cap on his salary, a manual job should be paid accordingly and opportunities to take classes in other areas of the company should be given so that this person can increase his productivity and his remuneration, that is another flaw on the seniority system in my view

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Edit: Forgot, I had a question for you: Do you fly with guys who have had heart attacks? Or have had both knees replaced? I do. You wouldn't pick these guys for ABAs in an evac scenario, but they are flying the airplane. We just had one die in the customs line in SJO.

The answer is no (outside of the us that is) and the reason is that they will be medically disqualified to perform as both cockpit and cabin crews, which goes to my point of the medical standards should be brought in line with the rest of the world

 

[flyboyike]

...the seniority system does have an advantage there I believe since the opportunity will be based primarily on the individual's performance...

Where and how does a seniority-based system take account of individual performance?

 

[dooork]

Where and how does a seniority-based system take account of individual performance?

By management of course.....how many times did you call in sick?....how many grievances did you file?...what was your on time performance?
0,0,100%....you get to upgrade.

 

[The Boss]

63 year old CAL pilot just dropped dead of a heart attack while going through customs yesterday. Sadly, unless these things happen in flight, they will never be news worthy.

 

[ASADFW7]

Is sad it sad the he died or that he did not die in flight?

 

[Flopgut]

The answer is no (outside of the us that is) and the reason is that they will be medically disqualified to perform as both cockpit and cabin crews, which goes to my point of the medical standards should be brought in line with the rest of the world

I can not help but sound sarcastic I'm afraid and I apologize. I have come to appreciate your input on this issue more than you might guess.

I actually was interested to know if you could approach your boss and advocate for a coworker's potential second chance. My only other insight into that sort of thing was a friend who worked at Cathay and he made it sound as though if you botched command evaluation the first time, that was it. That's interesting, thanks for the insight. Frankly, that sounds perfect to me. Please try to understand, that in the wake of this change to 65, our reality is not just the absense of a merit system. It's as though we only promote the most marginal; The opposite of a merit system. The sharp guys with normal personalities are eager to retire. The guys who are less so end up at the top and they tend to vote away the next pilot's flying opportunities through scope erosion. When age 65 kicks in it should have a dramatic effect. If not, we're toast. Project out our current trajectory, and we will only have pilots over 60 and no one will move up until the next guy dies. Everybody under 60 will be furloughed.

 

[pilotyip]

63 year old CAL pilot just dropped dead of a heart attack while going through customs yesterday. Sadly, unless these things happen in flight, they will never be news worthy.

and your point is? a 47 year old AAL pilot died of one in flight a few years back, should retirement now be 47?

 

[Flopgut]

Is sad it sad the he died or that he did not die in flight?

I knew the guy and had flown with him. He is one of the three pilots who had an on-duty heart attack back in 2007. He was dead on a jetway until a FA put an AED on him. He came back to the line after that for a while, then he had both his knees replaced. Came back again after that and now he's dead walking through customs for a layover.

I want to say this about the guy: Will Rogers never met him!

 

[The Boss]

Is sad it sad the he died or that he did not die in flight?

It is sad that (sudden) deaths that happen outside the cockpit will not be used to debate this topic because they are not kept track of. Does it matter if an airline pilot drops dead of a heart attack if they are in the cockpit or sitting in their Lay-Z-Boy at home.

Point is, it can happen anywhere, anytime and the older you get, the greater the chances are. At a minimum, medical standards should get higher as the pilot gets older.