Netjets vs majors

[JPB]

25 years to go
At any majors we are looking ON THE LONG RUN at:
4 to 10 millions
Home everyday with seniority
Traveling benef for life

Is Netjets able to offer anything close to that?

 

[banned username 2]

Hhhmmm...

NetJets = Hiring
Majors = Furloughing

 

[sweptwingz]

Well....

How about a job, period? You would be amazed at how may applications
Netjets has in it's stack from USAir pilots.

No, I'll probably never make 200K per year. But right now, I'll bet that
my 70K per year, 14 day month, 7 day on, 7 day off, 2 flight leg per day,
life style is looking REAL good to anyone sitting on the furlough list.

Would I give it up to go to Delta or American ? Perhaps. But since
they may not be hiring for several YEARS, that's not a consideration.

I'm just happy to be working. And as a guy who has been on the furlough
list before, having 50-75 guys a month being hired behind me gives me
a warm, fuzzy, feeling.

 

[gump88]

25 years to go
At any majors we are looking ON THE LONG RUN at:
4 to 10 millions
Home everyday with seniority
Traveling benef for life

Is Netjets able to offer anything close to that? Or is everyone lying to himself?

Whats up JPB? Why are you asking this question as though you are an outsider considering Netjets as a career choice? On another thread you indicated that you were hired by Netjets in Oct. 01 and were already 1/3 of the way up the list. Am I missing something or are you trying to deceive?

gump

 

[BigFlyr]

A career opportunity with the majors, say the top 5, is not a viable option these days. If you're young enough when they start hiring again, and can afford to be furloughed 2 or 3 times by the time you become "senior" enough not to... then maybe that would be the way to go if given the option. As for me, NetJets would be my first choice, given their continued growth in this economy and the benefits, schedule and pay do offer quality of life as compared to many "other" operations out there.

 

[JPB]

Gump88

The question is:
On the long run, are you better off with a major or a successful fractional. Keeping in mind that you may be furloughed for 2 or 3 years with the major but also that the fractional business is very new with a lot of competition to come for the next 25 years.
Didn t mean to sound like an "outsider" Gump, if I was still working for a major, I wouldn't be having this conversation.
I think I just answered my question.

 

[Lrjet55]

Majors

Here's my bit:

Ultimately you cant allow someone else to make a descision for you. The money is better at the airlines but fractional flying is truly fun. You get great benefits at the airlines and travel but at the fractionals you can actually get a job right now. It is truly an individual choice. Money, benefits, schedules and aircraft are only a fraction(no pun intended) of the equation; personal satisfaction is truly most important.

 

[Toploader]

As for the travel "benefits" afforded to airline employees, it is my opinion that here at NJA we have a MUCH better deal.

At the airlines, you get a pass that puts you on standby. Sometimes double secret standby. You may or may not get on the flight you want when you want. If you're going on vacation, this must be planned for, so you must plan for an extra day or two on each end just for travel. Oh, then you pay for your own hotel rooms.

My step sister keeps trying to use Delta passes to get around the country(Her Dad is a super senior MD-11 capt there). No good, she ends up having to wait for days or buy a ticket just to get somewhere on time.

At NJA, we get to keep all frequent flyer and hotel points which we accrue on the road. So, for free travel, we can use frequent flyer miles, which can be really useless like on American, or halfway worth using, like Continental. Even better, we use Hilton points to secure a positive space ticket as part of a vacation package or stand alone. As part of the package, the hotel is paid for, again positive space.

Went to Hawaii in March with the wife, all free for a week using Hilton points. No hassle. One phone call and it's done.

It is quite a bit better than "free" airline travel in my book, and I did not really understand how great of a benefit it was until I used it.

Toploader

 

[Lrjet55]

Majors

I agree with the both of you. I was simply trying to be politically correct with my reply. I think if I did work for an airline I would use the passes from time to time but if I had any sort of serious plans or time constraints then the only way to go is posisitive space.

 

[TMMT]

I almost went to the airlines in the mid nineties, Eagle to be exact. For some reason, call it gut instinct I backed out at the last minute. Hindsight being 20/20 it was the best move I’ve ever made.

At the time I was in my 6th year as a F/O for a good company but was becoming discouraged as most do over time with the lack of upgrades. But then I realized something… that despite it all, I was in a good job making good pay flying good equipment and I was seeing the world on someone else’s nickel staying in some rather nice hotels to boot.

Shortly after that I was hired by my present employer and within 6 months I was left seat on a G-III.

My take on the Bizjet vs. Airliner question is this,

I’m far happier flying privately and the occasional high dollar charter customer around to some rather exotic destinations, destinations that I might have never lived to see as an airline F/O or Captain, some of which aren’t even serviced by an airline.

Corporate ops do shutdown on occasion but those tend to be the smaller mid level to low-end ops, the bigger operations tend to hang on to their flight departments or go with a fractional. In the end there will always be a job for me in and around the corporate/charter arena even if they were to all shut down and go fractional, I would migrate to some one like EJI, EJM or NJ.

I believed that even before 9/11 corporate and fractional ops were here to stay and now in post 9/11 I believe it even more. Corporate operations may decelerate hiring or may even stop altogether but for companies like NJ there will always be business because there will always be large corporations who understand the benefits that only corporate aviation can provide and the airlines never in a millions years could handle.

Also I like the unpredictability of our schedule I like not knowing where I’ll be tomorrow, next week or next month. I like the Varity of destinations we see and the randomness at which we visit them.

So locations we visit I really love, we see them two or three times a year and I look forward to them, others I absolutely dread and we go there quite often, tis the nature of the beast…

Above all the ups out weigh the downs when flying corporate or fractional. What can an airline offer LAX-SFO-LAX-SEA five times a week for a month, same hotel, and same old city?

Tomorrow I’ll spend the day bumming around Dallas then I’m off to Antigua for two days. Next week I’ll send ya’ll a post card from Bergen Norway.


Just rambling…

TMMT

 

[gump88]

Good post TMMT!!! I have seen both sides of the fence and am very happy on the fractional side!

gump

 

[JPB]

Thanks everybody for your answers.
I also flew for commuters part 121 and I agree that fractional is nicer for comparable benefits. I was home every night though.
But the truth is that the fractional industry loses hundreds of pilots/month to the major. ( still about 50 since 9/11 for my company).
I was wondering what it would take for you to turn down a major (not just 121).

 

[Semore Butts]

On their dime

Someone probably already said this, but, when I'm on my way to work, I'm on the clock sitting next to some poor sap that is jumpseating to work on his day off.
Of course it's their choice not to live in domicile.
After 9-11, it's also good to know who is sitting behind you. An airline crew has a whole planeload of people behind them where there is a percentage of weapons getting through (be carefull!)
Trivial points maybe, but the worst part of my rotation is getting to work, and getting home on the airlines. The "big boys" God bless them, are in the airport every single day. I admit the girl watching is awesome, but otherwise, what a drag.
Have you ever noticed how "clueless and rude" people can be in the airport? I let it go because I realize that a majority of these people are stressed out of there gourd!
All I'm saying those airline people are really earning their dough now.
Take care

 

[CCDiscoB]

What do you mean "on your way to work?" Is the company dead heading you to meet the plane? Does this happen often? I'm sure they aren't paying you to commute.

 

[banned username 2]

What do you mean "on your way to work?" Is the company dead heading you to meet the plane? Does this happen often? I'm sure they aren't paying you to commute.

Yes, Most fractional guys "commute" to their plane on their first day of work (read: on duty getting paid) and commute home on their last day (read: on duty getting paid).... Their duty day typically starts when they arrive at their "Gateway" airport near their house to catch a flight to their plane...

Yes, they infact do get paid to commute... and it counts towards their duty day to boot! And it is a positive space ticket, no stressing out over standby, or jumpseat...

 

[hellas]

Corporate operations may decelerate hiring or may even stop altogether but for companies like NJ there will always be business because there will always be large corporations who understand the benefits that only corporate aviation can provide and the airlines never in a millions years could handle.



hmmmmmm... let me think about this

 

[hellas]

Now that I have though about it maybe I can get some answers from the frac guys... In the loss of a 2 trillion (yes I did write trillion ) economy and the dow hitting 8000'S, are the people you frac guys carry immune from the loss's. Here is my take, the frac indudstry is going to get hit with a wave of acquisition, bankruptcy, and loss's the likes of no airline has ever seen. The people you guys carry ARE the 2 trillion dollar loss and I have been in business for many years and I can guarantee that frac owners are renegotiating there contracts in droves. Airplane orders, defered payments and "projected ownership" does not amount to a hill of beans. I always see in the articles of fracs about orders on airplanes and the name dropping of clientel. But never, never do I see earnings, revenue, or EPS. But I do see these thing in companies like Southwest who has 8 Billion in capital. What do you frac pilots see in your companies that investors, (not the Warren Buffets) but people like me and 401k managers, investment firms do not? I hope with all my conviction that the frac industry turns to out be another outlet for aviation professionals to earn living. But I just dont see it. I really dont care to hear about all the company propaganda, your companies are run by people who are cut from the same cloth as the Wolf's, Junk Bonds, Miliken's and Enron managment and E-stocks. They are only looking to keep the stock safe for acquisition or IPO. Do you think a guy like Ricci who salvaged drug running citations out of the jungles of S. America and refurbish them to "new" and sold them people as flight Options has any long term integrity compaired to a Delta airlines or Fed Ex. Save your money and hold on because the "Boulder" that hit the pond created a wave you guys cant see over...

 

[NJA Capt]

(1)...are the people you frac guys carry immune from the loss's.

(2) The people you guys carry ARE the 2 trillion dollar loss and I have been in business for many years and I can guarantee that frac owners are renegotiating there contracts in droves.

(3) But never, never do I see earnings, revenue, or EPS.

(4) Save your money and hold on because the "Boulder" that hit the pond created a wave you guys cant see over...

I see there is still a great deal of misinformation about the fractional business. But, I'll try to answer your questions.

(1)(2)Mostly. Take Bill Gates for example (not a frac customer), he lost what last year $80 million? Heck, he still has 100 gazillion left!

The beauty of the frac aircraft for people is they don't have to buy the whole boat. Can't afford a Hawker of your own? Buy part of one. That's just what people are doing. Sure the economy has hurt some of our owners. All they have done is perhaps downgraded from a Hawker to an Ultra, or maybe from a Gulfstream to a Falcon. Immune? No. Leaving in droves? Not on your life!

(3) Because they are private companies. If you would like to look at NetJets numbers, just pick up Berkshire Hathaway's annual report.

(4) See over it? Heck, we're surf'in on it!
For the 121 guys to visualize....When you hear your first class pax talking about how cruddy it is to ride in coach, that is how our owners feel about first class. Our passengers WILL NOT go back to airline travel if they have to build a plane themselves.

 

[beytzim]

To Hellas,

You seem to be a pretty smart guy so I'll give you some interesting info:

The main difference between "Buffett" companies and just about every other publicly traded company is that Warren does not care about quartetly earnings, losses and expectations. Warren told Santulli he expects results in 10 years (that was 3 years ago). What has plagued Enron, Worldcomm is the desire to make the stock price as high as possible at the quartely earning postings. That is simply not the way Netjets works.

Further, once a biz jet owner has flown with us, its pretty tough for them to go back to the airlines. Sure, its expensive, but once they've seen this world of flying - they're simply not going back. Owning a jet currently makes much more fiscal sense than perhaps ten years ago (in regards to fracs) - and people WERE buying bizjets ten years ago.

Yes, the stock market is low, but if you know anything of cycles of the the DJIA over the last 34 years, you would know that there have been two 17 year economic cycles. These two cycles did not, I repeat, did not, emulate the DJIA growth rates at all. Therefore, the DJIA does not relate directly but perhaps indirectly to the US economy. With that one must assume that the fractional industry will do well regardless of the DJIA, but will do better and better as the airline industry's customer service gets worse exponentially.

Hope that clears things up

 

[hellas]

beytzim you wrote:
"Yes, the stock market is low, but if you know anything of cycles of the the DJIA over the last 34 years, you would know that there have been two 17 year economic cycles. These two cycles did not, I repeat, did not, emulate the DJIA growth rates at all. Therefore, the DJIA does not relate directly but perhaps indirectly to the US economy. With that one must assume that the fractional industry will do well regardless of the DJIA, but will do better and better as the airline industry's customer service gets worse exponentially"


This is the most fiscally ignorant statement I have ever read and it trully deserves no comment and I still stand behind my post. I dont mean to be offensive but if you did go to business school please ask for a refund..