Netjets vs majors

[hellas]

Corporate operations may decelerate hiring or may even stop altogether but for companies like NJ there will always be business because there will always be large corporations who understand the benefits that only corporate aviation can provide and the airlines never in a millions years could handle.



hmmmmmm... let me think about this

 

[hellas]

Now that I have though about it maybe I can get some answers from the frac guys... In the loss of a 2 trillion (yes I did write trillion ) economy and the dow hitting 8000'S, are the people you frac guys carry immune from the loss's. Here is my take, the frac indudstry is going to get hit with a wave of acquisition, bankruptcy, and loss's the likes of no airline has ever seen. The people you guys carry ARE the 2 trillion dollar loss and I have been in business for many years and I can guarantee that frac owners are renegotiating there contracts in droves. Airplane orders, defered payments and "projected ownership" does not amount to a hill of beans. I always see in the articles of fracs about orders on airplanes and the name dropping of clientel. But never, never do I see earnings, revenue, or EPS. But I do see these thing in companies like Southwest who has 8 Billion in capital. What do you frac pilots see in your companies that investors, (not the Warren Buffets) but people like me and 401k managers, investment firms do not? I hope with all my conviction that the frac industry turns to out be another outlet for aviation professionals to earn living. But I just dont see it. I really dont care to hear about all the company propaganda, your companies are run by people who are cut from the same cloth as the Wolf's, Junk Bonds, Miliken's and Enron managment and E-stocks. They are only looking to keep the stock safe for acquisition or IPO. Do you think a guy like Ricci who salvaged drug running citations out of the jungles of S. America and refurbish them to "new" and sold them people as flight Options has any long term integrity compaired to a Delta airlines or Fed Ex. Save your money and hold on because the "Boulder" that hit the pond created a wave you guys cant see over...

 

[NJA Capt]

(1)...are the people you frac guys carry immune from the loss's.

(2) The people you guys carry ARE the 2 trillion dollar loss and I have been in business for many years and I can guarantee that frac owners are renegotiating there contracts in droves.

(3) But never, never do I see earnings, revenue, or EPS.

(4) Save your money and hold on because the "Boulder" that hit the pond created a wave you guys cant see over...

I see there is still a great deal of misinformation about the fractional business. But, I'll try to answer your questions.

(1)(2)Mostly. Take Bill Gates for example (not a frac customer), he lost what last year $80 million? Heck, he still has 100 gazillion left!

The beauty of the frac aircraft for people is they don't have to buy the whole boat. Can't afford a Hawker of your own? Buy part of one. That's just what people are doing. Sure the economy has hurt some of our owners. All they have done is perhaps downgraded from a Hawker to an Ultra, or maybe from a Gulfstream to a Falcon. Immune? No. Leaving in droves? Not on your life!

(3) Because they are private companies. If you would like to look at NetJets numbers, just pick up Berkshire Hathaway's annual report.

(4) See over it? Heck, we're surf'in on it!
For the 121 guys to visualize....When you hear your first class pax talking about how cruddy it is to ride in coach, that is how our owners feel about first class. Our passengers WILL NOT go back to airline travel if they have to build a plane themselves.

 

[beytzim]

To Hellas,

You seem to be a pretty smart guy so I'll give you some interesting info:

The main difference between "Buffett" companies and just about every other publicly traded company is that Warren does not care about quartetly earnings, losses and expectations. Warren told Santulli he expects results in 10 years (that was 3 years ago). What has plagued Enron, Worldcomm is the desire to make the stock price as high as possible at the quartely earning postings. That is simply not the way Netjets works.

Further, once a biz jet owner has flown with us, its pretty tough for them to go back to the airlines. Sure, its expensive, but once they've seen this world of flying - they're simply not going back. Owning a jet currently makes much more fiscal sense than perhaps ten years ago (in regards to fracs) - and people WERE buying bizjets ten years ago.

Yes, the stock market is low, but if you know anything of cycles of the the DJIA over the last 34 years, you would know that there have been two 17 year economic cycles. These two cycles did not, I repeat, did not, emulate the DJIA growth rates at all. Therefore, the DJIA does not relate directly but perhaps indirectly to the US economy. With that one must assume that the fractional industry will do well regardless of the DJIA, but will do better and better as the airline industry's customer service gets worse exponentially.

Hope that clears things up

 

[hellas]

beytzim you wrote:
"Yes, the stock market is low, but if you know anything of cycles of the the DJIA over the last 34 years, you would know that there have been two 17 year economic cycles. These two cycles did not, I repeat, did not, emulate the DJIA growth rates at all. Therefore, the DJIA does not relate directly but perhaps indirectly to the US economy. With that one must assume that the fractional industry will do well regardless of the DJIA, but will do better and better as the airline industry's customer service gets worse exponentially"


This is the most fiscally ignorant statement I have ever read and it trully deserves no comment and I still stand behind my post. I dont mean to be offensive but if you did go to business school please ask for a refund..

 

[beytzim]

Yikes! I guess Warren Buffett too! He's the shmuck that said those ignorant silly little words. I guess its time HE goes to back to school too, eh? Geesh, you try to teach someone something new and all they do is insult.

Good luck my brother, and stay away from NJA, you bring bad karma.

 

[Vrefus]

The majors or for that matter, the airlines are heartbreakers. As soon as someone in the middle east poots the airlines starts furloughing. The perfect line which I've seen numerous times is "they hire til they furlough and they furlough till they hire". For me that's too much of an emotional roller coaster. As for NetJets, an outstanding company that treats its employees with class and dignity.

As for travel benefits, flying non-rev or space avail is a pain in the butt. Don't try to go anywhere on holidays, or to europe over the summer, or Rome for Christmas or anything else like that. So to me, the travel benefits are a moot point. Also, on NetJets you get to earn so much freq. flyer mileage, why not burn the points and fly space positive? Do I sound bitter? Probably, but that's what eight years at the airlines and now on furlough have done to me.

 

[hellas]

beytzim, just a little apolopgy, my comment was a little harsh, but I could no sit and have you tell me that the DJ is inversly proportioned to the economy. Look, I know you think that Berkshire/Hathaway is somehow tide to Flight safety and NetJets but that is just not the case. BH is a hedge fund for rich people that is so secure because of its elite investments, Bonds government notes etc... It is Buffets own little bank that is a safe haven for cash. In no way is tied to FSI/ Net jets and as well as Helzberg Daimonds etc. etc.. Do you beleive the 2nd richest man on the planet would not sell you guys off at the blink of any eye. You guys in the frac bus, are in fantastic but hugely volatile positions, I sometimes think I wish I had went to the frac interview, then I remember the schedules you guys are on, truly not condusive for family life. The Average money is not much better than the regionals. None, the less, I still stand by my post, show me the financials and some financial believers, other than the owners and Ill put my money in your company. Ill look at any article any website that shows/proves that the fracs are not in trouble with a flailing economy and Ill be man enough to say I was wrong. Sir, trust me I know money, I dont kid or antagonize about it.

 

[rufus]

Yea Hellas

If you knew money as well as you said you did, you would not be flying a Saab for 14k a year. Go pick on the Flight Options board, as you might actually have a "soon to be bankrupt" point with them. In the mean time, have fun working your second job to pay the rent , as I am sure Warren Buffet does (also a financial wizzard like yourself)

 

[hellas]

rfus: Ill think about your words of wisdom next month as Im going to be in my 6500 sqft villa on the beach in europe. Complete with an SUV, Boat, Harley and jet skis. Your scathing review has corrected me and I have now seen that I can only aspire to be in such a great position as yourself.
...Oh yeah, its 43K per year in the Saab and Im buying Z06 vette with that money this year....Black if you were wondering..see ya

 

[Lrjet55]

Hey A--hole, I mean Hellas,
Dont get on this post and start insulting our industry. Beytzim made a comment and you disagreed with it, thats fine. DO NOT sit there from your pedestle far, far away in your perfect flying position which I am sure you will retire from and insult our industry. The fractional business is fledgling and certainly not perfect but those of us in it like it, love it and we are trying our best to make it the sort of place we would like to retire from. We certainly dont need people of your lower calibur with a chip so large on your shoulder that you are tilting telling us what is and isnt about our industry. I hope you never apply with NJA. Actually I hope you do apply so someone out there can knock that chip off. If you do happen to scamper by then the rest of us will get you!

 

[hellas]

Lrjet55

please read my above post,

 

[beytzim]

This guy Hellas is full of S*#t. If he was so rich, he wouldn't be flying a Saab, but flying his own L-39 for kicks. He reminds me what everyone knows: he just insults others to make up for his own small anatomy.

My guess is he's a 17 year old kid who is working on his pilot's license and is getting a kick out of talking with us.

If I'm wrong, Hellas: The way to make friends and influence people is not to insult or condescend. As you know the aviation community is tightly knit, and this act doesn't impress anyone.

 

[Mile High]

Starting Pay and Max Pay???

I just have a question for the NJA guys. I am a young/lower time pilot won't be ready for NJA until 203-204. I was just wondering what kind of bene's there are and what is the average starting pay and how much is the max pay for a Gulfstream Capt. I appreciate any help!!!