NetJets To Picket

[fischman]

I'm curious if the GLC guys are going to be laughing after they have to fight for what we have. So far, they have been handed everything from the sweat off of NJASAP's brow...

 

[gutshotdraw]

I'm curious if the GLC guys are going to be laughing after they have to fight for what we have. So far, they have been handed everything from the sweat off of NJASAP's brow...

Gee, that's funny Fisch. I don't recall anybody from NJASAP in the cockpit next to me when I was earning the 7000 flight hours and Gulfstream type rating it took to get hired by NJI....

Jussss sayin.

 

[NJAowner]

The Law

Reality man -- while i do not know gth especifics in a labor venue since you say:

Just wondering G4, but if you were to build a house, and you had a signed contract with the builder covering ALL of the specifics, and one of the things in the contract was that the builder MUST use a certain type of insulation that you want and paid for, and he isn't allowed to change it without your permission, would it then be okay with you if he used a different insulation, assured you it was just as good, but refused to give you any real details about it, and never consulted you about the change, and you had no way to verify the truth of what he was telling you until AFTER the house was built? Because that's just one of the things that you and your laughing buddies think is so amusing (although I know quite a few former NJI pilots, and while not all of them think a union is so great, I don't know any who have even implied that what we're doing is a joke of any kind) with this 401k deal.

Your analogy is addressed by a very famous case. You may want to read the seminal Reading Pipe case, Jacob & Young v Kent. Labor law may me different but this may deal with your analogy, and more facts may be needed.

 

[BentOver]

Gee, that's funny Fisch. I don't recall anybody from NJASAP in the cockpit next to me when I was earning the 7000 flight hours and Gulfstream type rating it took to get hired by NJI....

Jussss sayin.

I know guys who went to NJI without the type....hope you didn't have to pay for the type.

There were no NJASAP guys next to me when I earned the 7000 hrs before going to NJA either. But I'm still proud to have been part of the Union, and still consider myself a NJASAP member... What's your point?

If it wasn't for the unionized workforces in aviation, the low pay would trickle down to every facet of aviation. Aviation needs unions because there are far too many that would do this job for free or for less. Unlike doctors/lawyers, pilots have shown their willingness to work for peanuts just to "be in the air, accumulating flight time."

 

[fischman]

Gee, that's funny Fisch. I don't recall anybody from NJASAP in the cockpit next to me when I was earning the 7000 flight hours and Gulfstream type rating it took to get hired by NJI....

Jussss sayin.

I'm referring to the CBA we fought for and the GLC guys are reaping the benefits of. I'm sure some will come back about getting a pay cut, but remember that the CBA is more comprehensive than section 27. All GLC crew members are benefiting from it whether they want to admit it or not.

 

[NachoMamma]

I'm referring to the CBA we fought for and the GLC guys are reaping the benefits of...All GLC crew members are benefiting from it whether they want to admit it or not.

and not one of them paid a single solitary dime for said privilege, but for some reason were integrated according to DOH anyway. Free seniority...what a deal.

 

[realityman]

Reality man -- while i do not know gth especifics in a labor venue since you say:

Just wondering G4, but if you were to build a house, and you had a signed contract with the builder covering ALL of the specifics, and one of the things in the contract was that the builder MUST use a certain type of insulation that you want and paid for, and he isn't allowed to change it without your permission, would it then be okay with you if he used a different insulation, assured you it was just as good, but refused to give you any real details about it, and never consulted you about the change, and you had no way to verify the truth of what he was telling you until AFTER the house was built? Because that's just one of the things that you and your laughing buddies think is so amusing (although I know quite a few former NJI pilots, and while not all of them think a union is so great, I don't know any who have even implied that what we're doing is a joke of any kind) with this 401k deal.

Your analogy is addressed by a very famous case. You may want to read the seminal Reading Pipe case, Jacob & Young v Kent. Labor law may me different but this may deal with your analogy, and more facts may be needed.

Thanks Owner. I will look it up during my standby time today.

I guess my point was for G4 that our contract, and by association, our compensation package, is being chipped away at little by little (although they are carving out bigger and bigger hunks as they go along), but he has said he finds it amusing "albeit ruefully" that we're trying to put a stop to it. Glad it's funny to him. I wonder if he finds it so funny how any airline under 10 hours will now be flown in coach, which is something that almost exclusively affects the Gulfstream pilots?
But hey, it's not that big a deal, right? Certainly not worth making a big fuss with the company over. It's just ONE thing, right? Why worry about that slightly lower quality brick. It's gonna be a beautiful house!

 

[G4dude]

I'm referring to the CBA we fought for and the GLC guys are reaping the benefits of. I'm sure some will come back about getting a pay cut, but remember that the CBA is more comprehensive than section 27. All GLC crew members are benefiting from it whether they want to admit it or not.

Not only do I NOT admit it, I maintain my job was BETTER when I worked for the non union NJI. And our future prospects were better, because we worked with management instead against them, which made NJI more competitive and more pleasant to work for.

 

[G4dude]

and not one of them paid a single solitary dime for said privilege, but for some reason were integrated according to DOH anyway. Free seniority...what a deal.

Free seniority for being FORCED to pay dues, you mean.

 

[G4dude]

Thanks Owner. I will look it up during my standby time today.

I guess my point was for G4 that our contract, and by association, our compensation package, is being chipped away at little by little (although they are carving out bigger and bigger hunks as they go along), but he has said he finds it amusing "albeit ruefully" that we're trying to put a stop to it. Glad it's funny to him. I wonder if he finds it so funny how any airline under 10 hours will now be flown in coach, which is something that almost exclusively affects the Gulfstream pilots?
But hey, it's not that big a deal, right? Certainly not worth making a big fuss with the company over. It's just ONE thing, right? Why worry about that slightly lower quality brick. It's gonna be a beautiful house!

Good post, realityman. I HATE the 10 hour rule, but it saves the company a lot of money, and I am willing to put up with it. A "slightly lower" quality of life here at NetJets seems a small price to pay for job security in this perilous economy. I want NJA to be competitive, to make a good profit, so I and my friends can stay employed and feed our families. You and I want the same things, but we differ on how best to secure them. Cheers!

 

[G4dude]

Gee, that's funny Fisch. I don't recall anybody from NJASAP in the cockpit next to me when I was earning the 7000 flight hours and Gulfstream type rating it took to get hired by NJI....

Jussss sayin.

Not only that, but I did NOT hire on with NJA precisely because the pay was too low. I didn't come on board, and then start screaming about how bad the pay was. I don't understand taking a job in a good job market, and then fulminating to change the company when y'all knew what the pay was when you took the job. The NJA pilots didn't need a union, just a BRAIN, to not fly for the underpaid NJA in the first place, which would have force the company to offer more money in order to attract good pilots. No need for the union at all, as the marketplace would have taken care of the problem. NJI is proof of what I am saying. If they hadn't offered me a good pay package and working conditions, I would not have accepted their offer. Again, an agreement freely consummated, good for both parties. No union required. NJI paid better, worked better, was more enjoyable, and made more money. No union needed there.

 

[brokeflyer]

Free seniority for being FORCED to pay dues, you mean.

quit and go somewhere else then. there are a lot of non union flight departments out there.

 

[G4dude]

quit and go somewhere else then. there are a lot of non union flight departments out there.

It is still a great job, just not as much fun as before. And I was not exposed to the rantings of the union types, which was good. Thank goodness I am on the Five, so the union presence is minimal so far.

 

[fischman]

Good post, realityman. I HATE the 10 hour rule, but it saves the company a lot of money, and I am willing to put up with it. A "slightly lower" quality of life here at NetJets seems a small price to pay for job security in this perilous economy. I want NJA to be competitive, to make a good profit, so I and my friends can stay employed and feed our families. You and I want the same things, but we differ on how best to secure them. Cheers!

The 10 hour rule does save the company money, but "a lot"? I don't think so. We are are talking about a drop of water in the ocean comparatively here.

I think the perilous economy excuse has run its course. The DJIA is over 12,000, NASDAQ is over 2600, unemployment is 8.6% and our competitors are hiring. I think it is time you realize that the reason you are riding coach is because our CEO can't sell jets and is lining his pockets at your expense. All it costs is your QOL. The ONLY way to increase your job security is to get our illustrious CEO to sell some jets and make our current owners happy instead of upset. Staffing is DIRECTLY tied to the amount of owners we have, not which class of ticket we have on the airlines. Not only are we not increasing the amount of owners we have, OUR EMT IS DRIVING THE ONES WE HAVE AWAY!!!

The company can be competitive if your CEO would allow it to be. The economy excuse is just that. So the questions I have for you is, where do you draw the line? At what point do you say enough is enough?

Our picket is our way of telling management that we are drawing the line here. We aren't willing to let the CEO get richer at our expense. There is no section of the CBA that is less valuable than another and we are willing to defend it. It is time for our GLC brothers to understand that and get on board with the rest of us.

 

[CA1900]

Exactly. And as for the supposed non-union NJI, that's a misnomer. NetJets was a union shop since before NJI was ever created. If its pilots really believed it was a separate company, they had their heads in the sand.

 

[G4dude]

The 10 hour rule does save the company money, but "a lot"? I don't think so. We are are talking about a drop of water in the ocean comparatively here.

I think the perilous economy excuse has run its course. The DJIA is over 12,000, NASDAQ is over 2600, unemployment is 8.6% and our competitors are hiring. I think it is time you realize that the reason you are riding coach is because our CEO can't sell jets and is lining his pockets at your expense. All it costs is your QOL. The ONLY way to increase your job security is to get our illustrious CEO to sell some jets and make our current owners happy instead of upset. Staffing is DIRECTLY tied to the amount of owners we have, not which class of ticket we have on the airlines. Not only are we not increasing the amount of owners we have, OUR EMT IS DRIVING THE ONES WE HAVE AWAY!!!

The company can be competitive if your CEO would allow it to be. The economy excuse is just that. So the questions I have for you is, where do you draw the line? At what point do you say enough is enough?

Our picket is our way of telling management that we are drawing the line here. We aren't willing to let the CEO get richer at our expense. There is no section of the CBA that is less valuable than another and we are willing to defend it. It is time for our GLC brothers to understand that and get on board with the rest of us.

The reason we are not selling planes is because of the flat economy, not because the company is inept. Where do I draw the line? Good question. When this job becomes less desirable than another available position, that is where I draw the line by voting with my feet as I leave for the new job. I don't feel the need to collectively force the company to do things for me. If I am happy, relative to the rest of the marketplace, I will stay at NJA. If not, I will go elsewhere. No acrimony against the company required, because all associations are voluntary. And if you want different things, you have the right to pursue them in the open market, just like me.

 

[G4dude]

The 10 hour rule does save the company money, but "a lot"? I don't think so. We are are talking about a drop of water in the ocean comparatively here.

I think the perilous economy excuse has run its course. The DJIA is over 12,000, NASDAQ is over 2600, unemployment is 8.6% and our competitors are hiring. I think it is time you realize that the reason you are riding coach is because our CEO can't sell jets and is lining his pockets at your expense. All it costs is your QOL. The ONLY way to increase your job security is to get our illustrious CEO to sell some jets and make our current owners happy instead of upset. Staffing is DIRECTLY tied to the amount of owners we have, not which class of ticket we have on the airlines. Not only are we not increasing the amount of owners we have, OUR EMT IS DRIVING THE ONES WE HAVE AWAY!!!

The company can be competitive if your CEO would allow it to be. The economy excuse is just that. So the questions I have for you is, where do you draw the line? At what point do you say enough is enough?

Our picket is our way of telling management that we are drawing the line here. We aren't willing to let the CEO get richer at our expense. There is no section of the CBA that is less valuable than another and we are willing to defend it. It is time for our GLC brothers to understand that and get on board with the rest of us.

I hope the CEO makes a lot of money, because that means the stockholders feel he is doing a good job. I just care about what I make. I want you to just care about what YOU make. I want Brokeflyer to just care about what he/she makes.The stockholders will worry about what they pay the CEO.

 

[OPECJet]

The reason we are not selling planes is because of the flat economy, not because the company is inept.

If that were true our competitors would not be selling aircraft either. They are selling, however.

Try again.....

 

[fischman]

The reason we are not selling planes is because of the flat economy, not because the company is inept. Where do I draw the line? Good question. When this job becomes less desirable than another available position, that is where I draw the line by voting with my feet as I leave for the new job. I don't feel the need to collectively force the company to do things for me. If I am happy, relative to the rest of the marketplace, I will stay at NJA. If not, I will go elsewhere. No acrimony against the company required, because all associations are voluntary. And if you want different things, you have the right to pursue them in the open market, just like me.

Like I said earlier, the "flat economy" is not longer a valid excuse. We are not selling shares because the EMT is DRIVING THE OWNERS AWAY. Our company doesn't advertise because most of our business was written by word of mouth. What do you think happens when the owners recommendations to their friends is negative? That is precisely what is happening my friend.

The great thing about you working in a union shop is now if the company decides to make the job "less desirable" than another job, they can't arbitrarily do it. They have to comply with the CBA, and you won't HAVE to go looking. See where I'm going here?

 

[G4dude]

If that were true our competitors would not be selling aircraft either. They are selling, however.

Try again.....

Their growth is pretty much as flat as ours. If they are doing a little better, it is because their product is cheaper because their labor costs are less, especially Flight Options. Every time we increase NJA's cost of operations, it especially benefits Options.

 

[G4dude]

Like I said earlier, the "flat economy" is not longer a valid excuse. We are not selling shares because the EMT is DRIVING THE OWNERS AWAY. Our company doesn't advertise because most of our business was written by word of mouth. What do you think happens when the owners recommendations to their friends is negative? That is precisely what is happening my friend.

The great thing about you working in a union shop is now if the company decides to make the job "less desirable" than another job, they can't arbitrarily do it. They have to comply with the CBA, and you won't HAVE to go looking. See where I'm going here?

I want the company to have the right to "arbitrarily" make my job less desirable. I don't want to have a less desirable job, but I want them to do what is best for them, and I will do what is best for me. If they employ me, and I accept that employment, it is a voluntary free agreement between two parties.

 

[fischman]

Their growth is pretty much as flat as ours. If they are doing a little better, it is because their product is cheaper because their labor costs are less, especially Flight Options. Every time we increase NJA's cost of operations, it especially benefits Options.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvlx4V8dqvU

I wonder how many of those are former owners of ours?

 

[fischman]

I want the company to have the right to "arbitrarily" make my job less desirable. I don't want to have a less desirable job, but I want them to do what is best for them, and I will do what is best for me. If they employ me, and I accept that employment, it is a voluntary free agreement between two parties.

Honest question:

How can you not see that QOL adjustments that the company arbitrarily makes only line the CEO's pockets? They don't "save" the company, or make it more competitive. The ONLY thing that does that are MORE OWNERS that the EMT is DRIVING away. Doesn't that bother you?

 

[imacdog]

Not only do I NOT admit it, I maintain my job was BETTER when I worked for the non union NJI. And our future prospects were better, because we worked with management instead against them, which made NJI more competitive and more pleasant to work for.

The union worked with management as well, until management decided to take their ball and go home. Sorry mr. management stooge but the pilot group is too smart for your lies.

 

[BentOver]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvlx4V8dqvU

I wonder how many of those are former owners of ours?

Remember when Richard Santulli, Netjets President, used to be the one doing these interviews!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now it's Presidents/CEO's of the competition....

 

[NachoMamma]

Not only do I NOT admit it, I maintain my job was BETTER when I worked for the non union NJI. And our future prospects were better, because we worked with management instead against them, which made NJI more competitive and more pleasant to work for.

So let's see...soon after the integration, NJ decides to eliminate Gulfstream as it's long range aircraft vendor and to replace it with Bombardier. Eventually, ALL Gulfstreams (including the V) will be placed in disposal status.

Had NJI NOT been integrated...(wait for it)...you'd be officially UNEMPLOYED (but still smug, clueless, and totally self-absorbed I'm sure).

This learning moment has been brought to you by the people who busted their a$$es so that you could have the protections you don't understand or appreciate but foolishly take for granted.

 

[wacoflyr]

I hope the CEO makes a lot of money, because that means the stockholders feel he is doing a good job. I just care about what I make. I want you to just care about what YOU make. I want Brokeflyer to just care about what he/she makes.The stockholders will worry about what they pay the CEO.

Okay, I know, I don't belong here. But I just gotta ask. Aren't you guys paid according to scale, which means you have set pay raises for every year that you work? We do, so I figured that was true over there, as well. And isn't that scale set by date of hire, just like ours is? And therefore, isn't it impossible to negotiate individual compensation? Hasn't that always been true, even before you got a union and a contract?


Of course if I'm wrong and you can negotiate individually, then I understand where G4 is coming from. Otherwise.... Even B19 agreed that we don't have the power to negotiate individually. So that leaves pilots with... What, exactly? G4?

Sorry if I'm out of line. Not my company, after all.

 

[G4dude]

Okay, I know, I don't belong here. But I just gotta ask. Aren't you guys paid according to scale, which means you have set pay raises for every year that you work? We do, so I figured that was true over there, as well. And isn't that scale set by date of hire, just like ours is? And therefore, isn't it impossible to negotiate individual compensation? Hasn't that always been true, even before you got a union and a contract?


Of course if I'm wrong and you can negotiate individually, then I understand where G4 is coming from. Otherwise.... Even B19 agreed that we don't have the power to negotiate individually. So that leaves pilots with... What, exactly? G4?

Sorry if I'm out of line. Not my company, after all.[/QUOTE

NJI had some discretion with pay. My main point is that I want the company to be free to behave in it's self interest. I also want to be free to behave in MY self interest. If those two things intersect, I have a job. I don't want or need somebody else representing me in my dealings with the company. This is not some radical idea, by the way. A huge percentage of US workers are non union.

 

[G4dude]

The union worked with management as well, until management decided to take their ball and go home. Sorry mr. management stooge but the pilot group is too smart for your lies.

Sorry, I just don't share your opinion of management's motives and actions. Doesn't mean I am evil. Or a liar.

 

[G4dude]

So let's see...soon after the integration, NJ decides to eliminate Gulfstream as it's long range aircraft vendor and to replace it with Bombardier. Eventually, ALL Gulfstreams (including the V) will be placed in disposal status.

Had NJI NOT been integrated...(wait for it)...you'd be officially UNEMPLOYED (but still smug, clueless, and totally self-absorbed I'm sure).

This learning moment has been brought to you by the people who busted their a$$es so that you could have the protections you don't understand or appreciate but foolishly take for granted.

Then I would go and get a cushy job somewhere else, with my credentials. I still don't need a group of (sorry fischman) thugs representing me. By the way, the reason I would lose my job in your scenario is because of - wait for it- the UNION. Oh the irony!