NetJets TA fails miserably

[Zipperhead]

Pilotyip,

Another know it all from someone who has never flown for a major airline.

Might I suggest you read Hard Landing or Flying the Line part 1 and 2 before you make totally unfounded coments.

You write:
The comment about UAL and DAL industry leading wages, is a fact of airline history. UAL was a profitable airline until their pilots held the airline hostage for a 35% increase, with sick outs, grounding flights, and other slowdowns. The instant that contract was signed UAL was no longer profitable.

 

[pilotyip]

Read them both

I have never professed to know it all; I only know what I read in the papers. I have read Hard Landing and Fly the line, they where written prior to the 2000 UAL contract. Have you read Cradall's WSJ comments on the how the airlines have no choice but to give the workers what they ask, in spite no business plan to cover the costs of those contracts. My comments about the 35% rise where based upon an AW&ST article written in the fall of 2000. UAL costs for hour on the A-320 in 2001 were over $1400/hr, JB costs were in $450/hour range source McGraw Hill, and it wasn't due all to pay difference, but to low productivity of the UAL pilots. The average UAL pilot flew 38.5 hours for 80 hours pay. Companies do not enter into these contracts because it is good for business. And if it not good for business, it not good for employees.

 

[Zipperhead]

Yes, I've read many various articles from Crandall and Carty. I am furloughed from AA. AA pilots took a 23% pay cut from what was the lowest paying contract in the industry. Delta has now taken a 32.5% cut and will still be making far more than AA pilots. AA pilots are now paid $46 per hour less than a 12 year Alaska airlines 737 pilot, $26 per hour less than SWA captains. My point is that major airline pay is going down. There was a time when it was one the highest paying professions. Lawyers, doctors and various other professions are now making more for far fewer life altering decisions.

When we were going through our last round of contracts at AA, their was a neutral party study done which concluded that if pilots worked for free, the airline would still be losing money. Pay cuts have NEVER salvaged an airline. My father was an Eastern captian and same thing happened there. Pay cut after pay cut with all the ususal promises.

The problem is managements unwillingness to change their philosophies. That was a huge problem at TWA. They are unwilling to adapt to change so the new LCC's such as Jetblue and Airtran as well as SWA who has always had a smart business model will succeed as they adapt and change.

If you don't believe I should be paid more than lawyers, accountants, engineers, computer techs and such when I have 150 passengers on board with an engine out and approach to minimums possibly with your family members on board, maybe you need to reconsider what it takes to become a major airline pilot, putting your career on the line three times a year, (line check, sim check and 1st class medical), years of building time at various below poverty level paying time building jobs, all inn hopes of obtaining an interview at a major where hopefully the day of the interview you get a fair chance to prove yourself because you are not a minority of some sort.


I whole-heartly agree that I should not be paid a wage that is unrecoverable by the airline in terms of operating costs. But you should be paid a wage that is consumerate with the experience you bring to your company. I don't believe $193 per hour for the most senior pilot at AA flying a 777 with nearly 275 passengers is a fair wage.

When people ask what I do and I tell them I'm a pilot, they ask for who, I say American airlines, they assume we all make $150,000-200,000 per year because it's what they read in the papers when it's contract time and the company is trying to show that we are asking for a pay raise. When I tell them how much I made for 6 years at the commuters, they think I'm lying.

It's always to much pay until there's a major mechanical or the wx is bad and we get them there safely.


I don't think only major airline pilots are the cream of the crop. I highly respect most military guys. I have flown for all types of companies, corporate, banner towing, instructing, commuters, non-skeds. Most do it because they love it and are trying to better themselves for the coveted major job with better pay, benefits, and quality of life.

I get tired of the people saying pilots make to much. A little research and they would see it's not as great as the media would have them believe.

 

[pilotyip]

$120K is a good job now days

We/You can not go back to the hey day of the legacy airlines. They are gone forever. The new model of the LLC, JB, AirTran, Frontier, is the new model of airline success. Those pilot make around $100-120K/yr. According to ATW, AA has come the closest of the legacies to get their act together by reducing employees per aircraft to the lowest of the legacy carriers. That may save some jobs at AA. If you were the CEO, what would you do to make you happy?

 

[ultrarunner]

"...On our NJWives board, pay is also discussed. I want to say that those wives are not being greedy; they have no wish to "bite the hand that feeds them". They just want to see their husbands treated/paid like the professionals they are. They want to be able to afford a newer car (many of us drive vehicles over 7 yrs old--my car is a 1990 model)..."

Like Gulfstream200 just said...good grief...muzzle yourself. Are you so freaking materialistic that's all you can think about...a newer car....good grief...

My wife drives a 10 year old Audi with 170,000 miles on it. Heck, I can't talk her out of it. And by the way, she grossed $220,000 last year, and could have easily bought a new car. Geez...it 'aint about new cars lady. Get with the freaking program!

 

[Zipperhead]

I'm not a CEO and not trying to act as if I know what a CEO should do. I don't have a degree in business. I have a degree in Aeronautical Science. I know how to fly airplanes to the safest degree I can. I can only say that if I flew like they managed, i.e. unwilling to think outside the box once in a while, their might be more accidents and people killed in accidents.

I realize the days of the legacy carrier are gone. While they may not be gone in name, they are gone in quality of life aspects.

My concern is that health insurance, pass benefits, vacation benefits, retirement and job security is eroding rapidly. AA mainline is still furloughing while Eagle has taken delivery of an average of three RJ's per month since sometime pre 9/11.

Bottom line is the people who are giving themselves multi-million bonuses whether it be airlines or companies such as Tyco, Enron, Health South or whoever, need to realize that there is more than just serving as CEO, COO, or CFO for a year or two than leaving with no one at the helm and no direction with labor having to take the brunt of their misguided direction.

 

[Dangerkitty]

Hey danger kitty and elcid, no I do not think you should fly for free, but I think making $100K per year flying an airplane is a good wage. I have never seen it. The comment about UAL and DAL industry leading wages, is a fact of airline history. UAL was a profitable airline until their pilots held the airline hostage for a 35% increase, with sick outs, grounding flights, and other slowdowns. The instant that contract was signed UAL was no longer profitable. The high margin business traveler never came back. Even with the cutbacks, those top guys at UAL and DAL are still making close to $200K, most of us could live on that. Read the WSJ and Crandalls comments on Thursday 10-14. Airlines have to cave in to strikes if they want to survive; they do not give pay raises because it is best for the long-term survival of the company. What is ignorant is assuming you take more money from a company that is martially profitable.

The reasons for UAL's and DAL's troubles are mismanagement not the pilot's salaries.

 

[Dangerkitty]

We/You can not go back to the hey day of the legacy airlines. They are gone forever. The new model of the LLC, JB, AirTran, Frontier, is the new model of airline success. Those pilot make around $100-120K/yr. According to ATW, AA has come the closest of the legacies to get their act together by reducing employees per aircraft to the lowest of the legacy carriers. That may save some jobs at AA. If you were the CEO, what would you do to make you happy?

You need to do a little research before you make statements such as the above. The new model is not the LLC. LLC's only serve a niche market. If you think the hub and spoke legacy carriers are going away then you are highly mistaken.

One more thing, most SWA Captains make between $180,000-$200,000 a year. Heck I was on a SWA jumpseat a few years ago and the Captain showed me his W2. He made over $300,000 the following year. I found it weird that he had a W2 in his flight bag but it at least proved what he was bragging about.

The stuff you are stating about Legacy Carriers has been stated many times each decade since deregulation. They never pan out the way the naysayers predict. Without a hub and spoke system the US Airline system would collapse.

 

[Corona]

Congrats to NJ pilots on rejecting the TA!! This is definitely a step in the right direction. I'm one who thought seriously about applying there until I saw how mgmnt was dragging out the negotiations, if you can call them that.

Hopefully you guys'll make it a good place to work again!

PS: 82% against? Do you suppose Mgmnt might want to do a vote recount? You know, just to be sure...

 

[pilotyip]

For Danger Kittty

How is it mismanagement that the UAL pilot flew an average of 38.5 hours per month live time, had a guarantee of 80 hours at the highest hourly wages in the industry? Where a SWA pilot flew 72 hours for 85 hours pay and a JB pilot flew 77 hours per month average for 90 hours pay? Did UAL management go this is a great business plan let us pursue it? That unbelievably non-productive pay program was a result of management caving into union demands even when they knew it was a bad decision. No one wants the CEO who will do the right think, like what is going on at AA right now. In addition, yes hub and spoke is still a vital part of the aviation infrastructure in the US, but it is going to redefine itself. We have not seen the end of restructuring yet. In addition, you never answered the question what would you do if you were CEO; the customer ultimately runs the show and now has so much information via the Interne the can easily price shop. .