NetJets TA fails miserably

[been-there]

PilotYip, you need to stop right there!

You are spouting managment drivel.

UAL pilot flew an average of 38.5 hours per month

Come on man, please tell me the time frame that number is derived from.

You have dug your hole and you continue to dig.

 

[Dangerkitty]

How is it mismanagement that the UAL pilot flew an average of 38.5 hours per month live time, had a guarantee of 80 hours at the highest hourly wages in the industry? Where a SWA pilot flew 72 hours for 85 hours pay and a JB pilot flew 77 hours per month average for 90 hours pay? Did UAL management go this is a great business plan let us pursue it? That unbelievably non-productive pay program was a result of management caving into union demands even when they knew it was a bad decision. No one wants the CEO who will do the right think, like what is going on at AA right now. In addition, yes hub and spoke is still a vital part of the aviation infrastructure in the US, but it is going to redefine itself. We have not seen the end of restructuring yet. In addition, you never answered the question what would you do if you were CEO; the customer ultimately runs the show and now has so much information via the Interne the can easily price shop. .

The UAL pilot's only stopped flying VOLUNTARY OVERTIME for a few short months in the summer of 2000. There was no work stoppage or self help. They just refused to do the company any favors until the UAL management would come back to the table and negotiate. There is no way in heck that this is the sole reason UAL is in Chapter 11 right now.

BTW, the UAL and DAL contracts only brought their pilots' salaries up to the CPI index levels enjoyed by airline pilots in the late 1970's.

 

[Dangerkitty]

In addition, you never answered the question what would you do if you were CEO; the customer ultimately runs the show and now has so much information via the Interne the can easily price shop. .

Simple. I would charge a price that would cover the costs to run the airline. If people didn't want to fly me becuase I charge too much then fine. There is no sense in flying aircraft and charging passengers so little that you can't even be cash flow positive.

 

[StaySeated]

gotta pile on pilotyip

Crandall says airlines are bullied by strikes? The railway labor act is the most lopsided useless tool biased towards the company. Self help in the form of a strike is not a guarantee. IF, and that is a big IF, after negotiations, mediation, impasse,request for release, cooling off, the threat of a strike is basically moot due to the trump card called a PEB. Strikes are forever a thing of the past. As organized labor, we have NO LEVERAGE. Crandall needs someone to blame and the age old whipping boy of organized labor comes to the rescue again.

United hasn't been profittable since the signing of the industry leading contract? Uhhh, where should I start. Concessions in the 80's, followed buy ESOP, followed by new concessions, then the new contract. Pilots almost made up for what they gave up in the 80's (including the ESOP which eventually became useless). The airline, along with the rest of the industry began losing money at an unprecedented rate soon thereafter due to several events. Economic recession, oil costs, a little thing known as 9/11, and huge tax burdens as the airlines are forced to pay for new security measures.

Please don't use that bs 38 hours of work for 80 hours of pay. This number is derived from taking the total numbers of hours flown by the company in a month and dividing that number by the total number of pilots on the seniority list. Sorry but that math just does not work. Dropped trips paid from the bank system, reserve crews not being used up to guarantee, training events, vacation, personal leave and sick calls all artificially drop the "hours flown" by each pilot. This is precisely why the number of aircraft types increases overall cost. Each type requires another pool of reserves and another training event. I am sorry but you will not find ONE line holder at UAL that flew 38 hours in one month that still got paid gurantee without paying himself through a bank or vacation balance.

If labor cost could save an airline then USAirways would be the most profitable airline on the planet. Their flight crews are currently getting paid rates that are over 20 years old and have NO work rules. For some strange reason they still can't turn a profit. It has to be labor's fault, so I guess they should take more concessions?!

Lets all say this together, "six figures is not a alot of money". Say it again. Say it one more time. The day a majority of professional pilots get brainwashed thinking they should subsidize operations by settling for 100-150k a year is the day I run away from this profession shaking my head in disbelief. Do I think 350 an hour is a fair wage for a wide body international captain with 20 years seniority. You bet your @ss I do. Do I think the current economic environment can support such a wage? Yes I do as long as an airline has a fleet that is closer to CAL's than USA's. As long as the industry gets tax reieif instead of atsb loans. Maybe then ticket prices can reach a point so a full aircraft still won't lose money.

Siting a failure of an airline CEO in a critique of labor might not be such a good point of view on a pilot message board. I appreciate any attempts to shed light on a failing industry, but crandall et al have zero credibility. Good luck in your endeavors and please do not take this as some form of personal attack. I felt the need to babble and my opinions are just that, not more right or wrong than anyone else on the board.

 

[pilotyip]

Wrong 6 figures in a good salary

I have never seen six figures, there 6 figures would a good salary. The 38 hour I am looking through my files to find the reference. But using your same logic of totla hours divided by total piltos, how JB is in the 77 hour ragne worked, and SWA in the 72 hour hour range. It is productivity, how much work is domne by each employee. Doing the smae work with fewer employees is the key to airlines sucess. It is the way AA is going save itself.

 

[Live4flyng]

I have never seen six figures, there 6 figures would a good salary. The 38 hour I am looking through my files to find the reference. But using your same logic of totla hours divided by total piltos, how JB is in the 77 hour ragne worked, and SWA in the 72 hour hour range. It is productivity, how much work is domne by each employee. Doing the smae work with fewer employees is the key to airlines sucess. It is the way AA is going save itself.

You are a fool! Please stay away from Fractional Aviation. It's idiots like you who are trying to make us professionals work for free. If you know so much about aviation, why aren't you the CEO of an airline? You can't even spell every other word correctly, please go away. $100K/year is NOT A LOT OF MONEY!!! FOOL!

 

[English]

Hey you guys, Pilotyip is right.


100K a year is lot of money for a pilot without a degree flying cargo in a DA20.

 

[Whirlwind]

I didnt say get rid of management... Just want to give them an incentive to do their job. If they want to make the big bucks they got to make 'em for me. The Sky is the limit.

I want to give them the chance to be leaders. The way management should work is to SERVE the workers. The goal of management should be to LEAD the workers to Financial Success.

Actually, you're mistaken...

The way management should work in a public company is to SERVE the stockholders.

The goal of management in a public company is to make as much profit for the shareholders as possible, and that includes paying the pilots as little as they can get away with.

I agree the pay at Netjets is too low, one of the reasons I won't go work there. When enough other pilots agree, then the pay will go up.

 

[Whirlwind]

Simple. I would charge a price that would cover the costs to run the airline. If people didn't want to fly me becuase I charge too much then fine. There is no sense in flying aircraft and charging passengers so little that you can't even be cash flow positive.

That sounds nice, but it doesn't work that way...

There are a ton of fixed costs in this business, and sometimes the way to lose the least money is to fill airplanes and sell tickets for slightly below cost, because the other option is to not make any revenue at all.

You can fight supply and demand all day long, and you'll lose. The free market is setting airline ticket prices more than ever, thanks to consumer information, the Internet, etc.

There are simply too many seats trying to fly around too few passangers willing to pay enough to move them. The chase for more pax and revenue has caused an oversupply of airline seats in the skies...

 

[Dangerkitty]

There are simply too many seats trying to fly around too few passangers willing to pay enough to move them. The chase for more pax and revenue has caused an oversupply of airline seats in the skies...

OK Einstein then tell me this. If there are "too many seats trying to fly around too few passengers" then why is AA (my airline) flying record loads hovering around 80%.

Can you answer that?

 

[Dangerkitty]

Hey you guys, Pilotyip is right.


100K a year is lot of money for a pilot without a degree flying cargo in a DA20.

Maybe for him but not for the rest of us.

 

[G100driver]

Hey you guys, Pilotyip is right.


100K a year is lot of money for a pilot without a degree flying cargo in a DA20.

ouch.

Pilotyip, while you make a valid arguement (in your own mind) the problem is that you have never seen the world outside the bottom feeding on-demand frieght carriers that survive on each and every call making a few nickles on each box, transmision or whatever.

If I am going to get called in the middle of the night or be gone from my family for extended periods of time I am going to have to make a living that will put my kids through college and be sure that my wife does not have to work. Having 1 parent away is hard enough. Going to daycare while your spouse must work would be downright cruel to a 4 year old. Every pilots goal is to make a good enough living as so they can provide for their families in such a way will give them an appreciation for life, education and hard work.

Without being able to provide that, then why are we here? Because we love to fly airplanes? Yea that is pretty cool, but it does not make up for being away from my family or getting called at all hours of the night.

To all you Netjet guys ... you go. Make the living that you deserve. Your familes and you deserve better.


PS I am also in management and know what it takes retain quality employees. You do not have to be at the top, but the bottom is no place to start either.

 

[Whirlwind]

OK Einstein then tell me this. If there are "too many seats trying to fly around too few passengers" then why is AA (my airline) flying record loads hovering around 80%.

Can you answer that?

Yes, they are selling the seats below cost to get enough people to fly. If they raised their prices high enough to make money on them, the airplanes would be far less full.

You might want to consider the fact that AA is losing money. They could have 100% loads, but if they are in the red...

 

[Dangerkitty]

Yes, they are selling the seats below cost to get enough people to fly. If they raised their prices high enough to make money on them, the airplanes would be far less full.

You might want to consider the fact that AA is losing money. They could have 100% loads, but if they are in the red...

How can you prove the statement you just made? I would love to see it, yet all the airlines are too chicken to try it and see if your hypothesis is correct.

 

[netjetwife]

If I am going to get called in the middle of the night or be gone from my family for extended periods of time I am going to have to make a living that will put my kids through college and be sure that my wife does not have to work. Having 1 parent away is hard enough. Going to daycare while your spouse must work would be downright cruel to a 4 year old. Every pilots goal is to make a good enough living as so they can provide for their families in such a way will give them an appreciation for life, education and hard work.

Without being able to provide that, then why are we here? Because we love to fly airplanes? Yea that is pretty cool, but it does not make up for being away from my family or getting called at all hours of the night.

To all you Netjet guys ... you go. Make the living that you deserve. Your familes and you deserve better.

G100driver--what an excellent post! I am in complete agreement w/you, as are 82% of the NJ pilots. Btw, 98% of their ballots were returned, so truly that is a powerful statement of what the pilotforce thought of the insulting TA they were presented. Absolutely, they and their families deserve much better--the pilots have already earned it, and their families have done more than their fair share to help the company grow.

My husband received his call at 4am this morning/last night. By tomorrow our 3yr old daughter will be asking when Daddy comes home--he's out for 5 days this time. Luckily she has me with her all the time, but that is only because my husband is retired AF. Other NJ families aren't in that position and are faced w/a situation NO pilot's family should have to suffer. Thank you for your support.

Good luck to you and your family,
Netjetwife

 

[Whirlwind]

How can you prove the statement you just made? I would love to see it, yet all the airlines are too chicken to try it and see if your hypothesis is correct.

Proving it is quite simple...

Lets say I want to fly from DFW to LAS. Lets say that American Airlines and America West both have flights when I want to go. Now American wants to make money, so they offer a ticket for 20% more than America West.

Whom do you think I'm going to buy a ticket on? If you guessed America West, congrats, you guessed correctly.

While it is true that some people would still fly American Airlines on that flight, the load factor would be way down. It has been tried many times over the years, they don't sell tickets at the prices they do by accident.

 

[Dangerkitty]

Proving it is quite simple...

Lets say I want to fly from DFW to LAS. Lets say that American Airlines and America West both have flights when I want to go. Now American wants to make money, so they offer a ticket for 20% more than America West.

Whom do you think I'm going to buy a ticket on? If you guessed America West, congrats, you guessed correctly.

While it is true that some people would still fly American Airlines on that flight, the load factor would be way down. It has been tried many times over the years, they don't sell tickets at the prices they do by accident.

You have proved nothing. The only thing you have proved is that you have a myopic view of the airline industry of which you are not a part of. You forgot things like loyalty to a carrier and airline miles. A person with a few million miles on AA is not going to fly on AWA just becuase the cost is a little less.

Oh and by the way, the DFW-LAS scernario that you just typed out is about the worst you could have given. Anything in and out of LAS has the worst yields in the USA. Learn the industry a little better before you give examples like this. AA gives out airline miles for these scernarios that you just pointed out.

Try again skippy.

 

[njwingman]

You have proved nothing. The only thing you have proved is that you have a myopic view of the airline industry of which you are not a part of. You forgot things like loyalty to a carrier and airline miles. A person with a few million miles on AA is not going to fly on AWA just becuase the cost is a little less.

Oh and by the way, the DFW-LAS scernario that you just typed out is about the worst you could have given. Anything in and out of LAS has the worst yields in the USA. Learn the industry a little better before you give examples like this. AA gives out airline miles for these scernarios that you just pointed out.

Try again skippy.

AA Pilot --

Don't know if you noticed or not, but you're in the Fractional part of this message board. Majors are in another section. Maybe there are pilots over there that can give you answers you like. Regards --

 

[pilotyip]

Whirlwind a voice of reason

Whirlwind a voice of reason in a sea "What is in it for me" The old supply and demand keeps getting in the way want we would like the industry to be like.

 

[pilotyip]

For English, great post

It is not ever day that English and I agree upon something. But almost all of our 10-year pilots are in the $100K range, and most are not looking for other jobs. And like other top performing companies such as SWA and JB we do not let a piece of paper stand in the way of hiring the right guy. We have hired dozens of pilots with degrees, including masters and Ph.D. Degrees are common, most pilots have one, but in the end they have little to do with flying an airplane.