NetJets TA fails miserably

[been-there]

PilotYip, you need to stop right there!

You are spouting managment drivel.

UAL pilot flew an average of 38.5 hours per month

Come on man, please tell me the time frame that number is derived from.

You have dug your hole and you continue to dig.

 

[Dangerkitty]

How is it mismanagement that the UAL pilot flew an average of 38.5 hours per month live time, had a guarantee of 80 hours at the highest hourly wages in the industry? Where a SWA pilot flew 72 hours for 85 hours pay and a JB pilot flew 77 hours per month average for 90 hours pay? Did UAL management go this is a great business plan let us pursue it? That unbelievably non-productive pay program was a result of management caving into union demands even when they knew it was a bad decision. No one wants the CEO who will do the right think, like what is going on at AA right now. In addition, yes hub and spoke is still a vital part of the aviation infrastructure in the US, but it is going to redefine itself. We have not seen the end of restructuring yet. In addition, you never answered the question what would you do if you were CEO; the customer ultimately runs the show and now has so much information via the Interne the can easily price shop. .

The UAL pilot's only stopped flying VOLUNTARY OVERTIME for a few short months in the summer of 2000. There was no work stoppage or self help. They just refused to do the company any favors until the UAL management would come back to the table and negotiate. There is no way in heck that this is the sole reason UAL is in Chapter 11 right now.

BTW, the UAL and DAL contracts only brought their pilots' salaries up to the CPI index levels enjoyed by airline pilots in the late 1970's.

 

[Dangerkitty]

In addition, you never answered the question what would you do if you were CEO; the customer ultimately runs the show and now has so much information via the Interne the can easily price shop. .

Simple. I would charge a price that would cover the costs to run the airline. If people didn't want to fly me becuase I charge too much then fine. There is no sense in flying aircraft and charging passengers so little that you can't even be cash flow positive.

 

[StaySeated]

gotta pile on pilotyip

Crandall says airlines are bullied by strikes? The railway labor act is the most lopsided useless tool biased towards the company. Self help in the form of a strike is not a guarantee. IF, and that is a big IF, after negotiations, mediation, impasse,request for release, cooling off, the threat of a strike is basically moot due to the trump card called a PEB. Strikes are forever a thing of the past. As organized labor, we have NO LEVERAGE. Crandall needs someone to blame and the age old whipping boy of organized labor comes to the rescue again.

United hasn't been profittable since the signing of the industry leading contract? Uhhh, where should I start. Concessions in the 80's, followed buy ESOP, followed by new concessions, then the new contract. Pilots almost made up for what they gave up in the 80's (including the ESOP which eventually became useless). The airline, along with the rest of the industry began losing money at an unprecedented rate soon thereafter due to several events. Economic recession, oil costs, a little thing known as 9/11, and huge tax burdens as the airlines are forced to pay for new security measures.

Please don't use that bs 38 hours of work for 80 hours of pay. This number is derived from taking the total numbers of hours flown by the company in a month and dividing that number by the total number of pilots on the seniority list. Sorry but that math just does not work. Dropped trips paid from the bank system, reserve crews not being used up to guarantee, training events, vacation, personal leave and sick calls all artificially drop the "hours flown" by each pilot. This is precisely why the number of aircraft types increases overall cost. Each type requires another pool of reserves and another training event. I am sorry but you will not find ONE line holder at UAL that flew 38 hours in one month that still got paid gurantee without paying himself through a bank or vacation balance.

If labor cost could save an airline then USAirways would be the most profitable airline on the planet. Their flight crews are currently getting paid rates that are over 20 years old and have NO work rules. For some strange reason they still can't turn a profit. It has to be labor's fault, so I guess they should take more concessions?!

Lets all say this together, "six figures is not a alot of money". Say it again. Say it one more time. The day a majority of professional pilots get brainwashed thinking they should subsidize operations by settling for 100-150k a year is the day I run away from this profession shaking my head in disbelief. Do I think 350 an hour is a fair wage for a wide body international captain with 20 years seniority. You bet your @ss I do. Do I think the current economic environment can support such a wage? Yes I do as long as an airline has a fleet that is closer to CAL's than USA's. As long as the industry gets tax reieif instead of atsb loans. Maybe then ticket prices can reach a point so a full aircraft still won't lose money.

Siting a failure of an airline CEO in a critique of labor might not be such a good point of view on a pilot message board. I appreciate any attempts to shed light on a failing industry, but crandall et al have zero credibility. Good luck in your endeavors and please do not take this as some form of personal attack. I felt the need to babble and my opinions are just that, not more right or wrong than anyone else on the board.

 

[pilotyip]

Wrong 6 figures in a good salary

I have never seen six figures, there 6 figures would a good salary. The 38 hour I am looking through my files to find the reference. But using your same logic of totla hours divided by total piltos, how JB is in the 77 hour ragne worked, and SWA in the 72 hour hour range. It is productivity, how much work is domne by each employee. Doing the smae work with fewer employees is the key to airlines sucess. It is the way AA is going save itself.

 

[Live4flyng]

I have never seen six figures, there 6 figures would a good salary. The 38 hour I am looking through my files to find the reference. But using your same logic of totla hours divided by total piltos, how JB is in the 77 hour ragne worked, and SWA in the 72 hour hour range. It is productivity, how much work is domne by each employee. Doing the smae work with fewer employees is the key to airlines sucess. It is the way AA is going save itself.

You are a fool! Please stay away from Fractional Aviation. It's idiots like you who are trying to make us professionals work for free. If you know so much about aviation, why aren't you the CEO of an airline? You can't even spell every other word correctly, please go away. $100K/year is NOT A LOT OF MONEY!!! FOOL!

 

[English]

Hey you guys, Pilotyip is right.


100K a year is lot of money for a pilot without a degree flying cargo in a DA20.

 

[Whirlwind]

I didnt say get rid of management... Just want to give them an incentive to do their job. If they want to make the big bucks they got to make 'em for me. The Sky is the limit.

I want to give them the chance to be leaders. The way management should work is to SERVE the workers. The goal of management should be to LEAD the workers to Financial Success.

Actually, you're mistaken...

The way management should work in a public company is to SERVE the stockholders.

The goal of management in a public company is to make as much profit for the shareholders as possible, and that includes paying the pilots as little as they can get away with.

I agree the pay at Netjets is too low, one of the reasons I won't go work there. When enough other pilots agree, then the pay will go up.

 

[Whirlwind]

Simple. I would charge a price that would cover the costs to run the airline. If people didn't want to fly me becuase I charge too much then fine. There is no sense in flying aircraft and charging passengers so little that you can't even be cash flow positive.

That sounds nice, but it doesn't work that way...

There are a ton of fixed costs in this business, and sometimes the way to lose the least money is to fill airplanes and sell tickets for slightly below cost, because the other option is to not make any revenue at all.

You can fight supply and demand all day long, and you'll lose. The free market is setting airline ticket prices more than ever, thanks to consumer information, the Internet, etc.

There are simply too many seats trying to fly around too few passangers willing to pay enough to move them. The chase for more pax and revenue has caused an oversupply of airline seats in the skies...

 

[Dangerkitty]

There are simply too many seats trying to fly around too few passangers willing to pay enough to move them. The chase for more pax and revenue has caused an oversupply of airline seats in the skies...

OK Einstein then tell me this. If there are "too many seats trying to fly around too few passengers" then why is AA (my airline) flying record loads hovering around 80%.

Can you answer that?