NETJETS Profits...UP UP and AWAY!

[FamilyGuy]

If the company was interested in saving money, we would be changing crews in large cities (NJA places like PBI, MDW, TEB) instead of places like Charleston Executive and Quincy IL. It does no good to save money on one side of the equation if you are going to double it on the other.

Sure, it would be nice if we could change crews in large cities. It would also be nice if we could do all of our maintenance in large cities as well. Unfortunately it just doesnt work out that way all the time. That's the fractional 'on demand' model.

You control what you can, to the best of your abilities, but there are no guarantees.

Furthermore, what is the difference in originating from a "hub/domicile" and airlining to spoke/HBA OR originating in a HBA and airlining to a hub to pick up the plane?? Other than the fact that a ticket originating at a spoke is cheaper to purchase than the one from a hub.

It is well known that major airline hubs are generally more expensive to originate trips from. Many people drive 1-2 hours away from a hub to get a cheaper ticket that connects through the same hub.

Major 'FORTRESS' airline hubs (ATL, CVG, DTW, MSP, etc) where the dominant airline controls more than 70% of the traffic are more expensive.

How many of our domiciles are in fortress hubs?

The other difference is duty time.

The original intent of the Domiciles was to provide a place to gather a/c for upkeep and crew changes. Since the inception of this system, they have been used for neither.

They've been used for neither?

I guess all that work maintenance has been doing to focus aircraft on LAX and PBI for overnight mx has just been wasted....

 

[realityman]

FG,

Your reasoning is flawed from so many aspects it's hard to know where to begin.

First, in what way do you figure CMH, or TEB, or even PBI for that matter qualifies as a hub airport? Hubs for who? Are there even any flights on airlines out of TEB? Not sure how you figure those airports would involve fewer connections than, say, flights out of MKE (TEB usually involves a long ride to EWR). Of course, you may argue that those locations have a large number of NJA aircraft passing through them which means those domicile pilots would need to airline less. However, so far, it appears those domicile pilot are only doing slightly less airlining than HBA pilots (and PBI slows down with our aircraft a lot from spring through early fall).

Furthermore, like a true management stooge, you keep dancing around the real issue. The company was crying about how they really wanted domiciles because it would work very well with their big plans for RCA's. So I'll ask again, what happened to the RCA concept? Seems to me the number of connections needed to get to a plane had nothing to do with why they claimed they wanted domiciles. So with no RCA's, what's the point of domiciles?

Oh, and by the way, couldn't the company get more productivity out of us if we only had to airline one segment to get home too? Be able to work longer on our last day, right? Well, I lived in ATL for three years and I remember oh so many flights back to A MAJOR HUB where I was booked with connections. I live in PIT now and same stupid deal. In fact, while PIT isn't the major hub it once was, there are still many direct flights to many destinations, and yet I keep starting my tour with flights that involve connections. How does that work into your reasoning? Are you going to tell me I'm the only one this happens to?

You also ask why should we bitch about something we voted in? Oh, I don't know. Why should we have bitched about anything in the first place? Maybe to identify problem areas and then strive to make them better? Sheesh! Are you really serious with these inquiries?

And you aren't comparing apples to apples when comparing HBA's to any other benefit at NJA. The domiciled pilots have to take on a greater financial hardship/lower QOL than the HBA'd pilots because of the domicile thing. Reread my previous post about the hardships the domiciled pilots face. We're all on the same salary scale. We're all on the same vacation scale. If a fifth year captain makes $90K now, then in two years a fifth year captain will also make $90K. But if today's fifth year captain lives at an HBA, will the future fifth year guy be able to live in an HBA? Right now, doesn't look like it. It's not the same benefits for everyone, even factoring in increased benefits with seniority. It's not a fair system and it's not insignificant. You say your posts didn't say it was insignificant, but the tone of your post definitely said that!

With FLYLOW, you keep coming back to our union resorting to 121-style tactics and even using 121 negotiators or some such thing. Not sure about that, but even if we did, I say again: we were only responding in like kind to what the company was doing. If management had wanted a love-fest bargaining session, they could have had that. But they chose another route. We didn't have a whole lotta choice in our tactics (if we ever wanted a glimmer of hope that the contract would be finished and decent).

And NJA basically rescued these guys and gave them a job? Really? I'd love to see these planes fly without us. As much as most of us need our jobs, like working here, and ARE grateful, maybe it's time NJA management realized that they can't do without us either.

Hopefully, the new IBB talks will yield something in that direction.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Did I ever say the pilots didnt earn it? Did I ever say the pilots didnt deserve a raise?

If it were up to you, you'd keep us on life support, bottom of the barrel wages. Had your chance for YEARS to prove yourself otherwise. Opportunity squandered.

What I have said is that there is no reason for you or this pilot group to disparage Mr. Santulli or his appointed leaders. You know you are fortunate to be here rather than in the 121 world, so why dont you acknowlege your good fortune rather than biting the hand that feeds you?

You are not our keeper. We don't get "fed" anymore than we "feed" the company. Quit deflecting the issue towards RTS. We are directing the negative towards YOU. I believe that I am just as "lucky" to be here as the company is to enjoy my services and experience.

I didn't say they were trivial. I said that if that's all you have to bitch about this life is pretty good. Again, acknowledge that and move on rather than acting like the wheels are coming off the place.

Yes, you did. By saying that Crew Food and HBAs are all we have to complain about. I will gladly do away with the food program and spend my per diem by finding a sit down restaurant. Bring it on. See how much flying NJA does. The crew food program is contractural language. CBA language is rock solid and must be adhered to. It's an agreement that the company can't/won't follow yet demanded it be included in the CBA. Funny...

Interesting. So you spent collective bargaining collateral on the crew food language?

What did you give up to get that language?

I wasn't a negotiator but the Union NC was NOT "for" the crew food program. This was another Boisturism gone bad. In this case, it's not a matter of what WE gave up, it's what we got in some other area. Collective Bargaining is about trading. We started so far in the hole below the industry average, hell... below what trash collectors make that bargaining to our advantage was not hard.

The company had plenty of years to capitalize on our low wages. Plenty.

I cant wait for the stats.

Why would you see them? What would you do with them?

So that's why you bring in 121 'consultants'?

Not following you here champ. I bring no one to work.

That's why you use the same tactics and language?

Not following you here either. We use "tactics" and "language" as Trade Unionists... part of labor. Airline Pilots too are... one guess... Trade Unionists. GASP!!! A correlation.

Evidently you aren't familiar with this US Federal Government report on Airline Labor Relations, published by the GAO in 2003:

http://www.gao.gov/htext/d03652.html

Here's the relevant excerpt for the people who don't want to read the whole report:

A part of the administrative change the Board undertook after the 1996 reports was the creation of an ADR program. Under this program, the parties have the option of using facilitated discussions, called "Interest Based Bargaining," to negotiate contracts in a non-traditional, cooperative manner. In 1997, there was one IBB case. In 2002, almost half of the cases handled at the NMB began as IBB cases.

Yes, BEGAN you goon. Section 6 BEGAN as IBB. NO GROUP that I know of has begun IBB for the sake of IBB outside of Section 6. New one for me... but I never claimed to know it all; unlike you.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Pilots being airlined out of domiciles does not mean that there are too many pilots based there.

The savings from the domicile program comes from having to airline them FEWER times to get them to their NetJets aircraft.

Rather than airlining them from a remote HBA to a hub, then to their ultimate destination, they should be able to go from the hub to the destination. This results in fewer airline tickets and a faster trip to the aircraft, which means more available duty time.

Damn I love it when you are talking out of your ass. Your breath smells though.

Do you have any guess on how many times a Domicile pilot ends up airlining to and from their base rather than picking up a NJA plane in base? Out of 20 tours, maybe once unless they are CMH based.

Do you know how much it costs to fly from HBAville through a hub to meet up with an NJA plane vs. buying a ticket in a Domicile to go to meet the NJA plane? About the same. God I love it when you talk out of your ass!!!!

Examples from 2 minutes of surfing for prices.

LAX-RNO $202 Domicile!!!!!
SEA-RNO $201 HBA OH MY LORD!!! It's cheaper!!!!
PDX-RNO $192 HBA MY STARS N GARTERS!!! It's cheaper yet!!!
BOI-RNO $161 HBA Seeing a trend??
SAN-RNO $202 HBA FINALLY!! THE SAME PRICE!!!

But more expensive to operate out of an HBA??? Not seeing it. BUNK!!!

Let's check andother Domicile

DFW-RNO $278
SAT-RNO $283 Oh my. We broke the bank... $5.00 more.


I think that a reasonable solution that would meet the majority of needs here would be to open about 25-30 cities as Domiciles... hmmm... you know, one's with hubs or alot of service.

Yes, I'll admit that it might be more expensive to fly out of Elko, NV than Las Vegas or Seattle but you can't convince me that putting pilots in parts of the US with heavy amounts of airline service isn't a major benefit to 1st/Last day scheduling. You just can't.

 

[Hogprint]

Amazing how FamGuy shows up again now that LMRC and IBB are gearing up.

Taking the pilots pulse again eh FamGuy?

 

[DO-82 driver]

No......all he's doing is creating more "NO" votes until we get something that REALLY matters to us and not as a tool for "making scheduling more efficient".

I had to laugh when I heard that line.

 

[RNObased]

Pilots being airlined out of domiciles does not mean that there are too many pilots based there.

The savings from the domicile program comes from having to airline them FEWER times to get them to their NetJets aircraft.

Rather than airlining them from a remote HBA to a hub, then to their ultimate destination, they should be able to go from the hub to the destination. This results in fewer airline tickets and a faster trip to the aircraft, which means more available duty time.

You know something family guy, set down the Kool-Aid and think. Do you really believe the crap you spew or are you just trying to piss the pilots off??

It doesn't matter where you are based or where you are domiciled, you are going to airline 90% of the time. There is no savings, it is nothing more then a device for mangement to use as a tool next time the contract comes up.

The fact is the RCA plan is flawed for several reasons, but I will give you one that you probably aren't even aware of. The maintance at LAX is horrific. Everyone knows it and they try to bring nothing but little stuff to them because they can't deal with anything but the easy stuff. The fact is that you love to talk about stuff that you don't have much of a clue about.

I can't wait to see what other great plans come out of the brain trust back in CMH. Maybe showing the pilots at the FBO early in the morning to break them during contract talks, or maybe let's hire capts off the streets oh damn forgot, you already tried that and it failed and cost mangement people their jobs also.

 

[realityman]

Hey FG!

Just for the record, got my brief for tomorrow. Have to airline PIT-LAX. Hmmm........a number of nonstop flights exist on that route. Guess what I'm doing? PIT-PHX-LAX.

So what were you saying about getting us to planes faster?






Crickets........................

 

[x402]

Hey FG!

Just for the record, got my brief for tomorrow. Have to airline PIT-LAX. Hmmm........a number of nonstop flights exist on that route. Guess what I'm doing? PIT-PHX-LAX.

So what were you saying about getting us to planes faster?






Crickets........................

You're just not seeing the big picture:nuts:

 

[pilotpat]

Crickets........................

Priceless...LOL :smash:

 

[CA1900]

Hey FG!

Just for the record, got my brief for tomorrow. Have to airline PIT-LAX. Hmmm........a number of nonstop flights exist on that route. Guess what I'm doing? PIT-PHX-LAX.

He's right, you're just not seeing the big picture. If you were put on a direct flight, the scheduler wouldn't be able to check that little box that you had a "long enough" duty day, and thus you were being "utilized" adequately. Nevermind that you're just going to go to a hotel, and wouldn't be producing any revenue either way. It's all about filling up the day.

 

[fischman]

No anger or hostility here. I’m actually very happy with my life. I have a great family, great friends, and a great job with a great company.

I think part of what makes me happy with what I have is that I’ve been on the other side….I’ve worked for a unionized mainline carrier and I’ve worked for crappy companies that don’t take care of their people. So when you find a good company it makes you appreciate it even more.

That said, I do find your question somewhat ironic because I've wondered the same thing about so many of the union supporters on this board. A new reader of this board could easily get the impression that NetJets is a bad place to work, what with all the angst and wringing of hands here.

Of course, what is everyone bitching about? Crew food and HBA for new hires? If that’s all you have to bitch about then life is pretty damn good.

What I do find disturbing is that so many relatively new hires (5 years or less) have no appreciation for their good fortune and just want to bitch and publicly disparage our CEO and other leaders. Many of these same whiners have actually been laid off from mainline carriers, but instead of being grateful for finding a safe harbor in this economic storm that has beset the aviation world for the last 6 years, all they can think of is recreating their airline world here.

So they’ve imported airline style bargaining, and airline union attitudes. It’s probably inevitable that the company will resort to the same tactics and use airline style bargaining practices as well. For the life of me I can’t figure out why anyone would leave a dying business model and yet try to recreate that same environment in their new home.

I, for one, want nothing of that airline mentality imported into NetJets. I’ve seen a lot of my friends work for years at a legacy carrier only to lose their jobs and receive a fraction of their benefits. Why would anyone want to replicate that model?

You want to re-read that and explain how that doesn't insult every one of us? Your "tone" implies nothing but disgust and contempt. I thought you said you had the upmost respect for the pilots at NetJets? Doesn't sound like it to me... Which side of the rope are you on?

Dan Rosenthal (Maybe you know him. He works in the office of the chairman) mentioned that the domicile business plan will only REALLY work if they are able to get all the pilots in the same 5 cities. I asked him if he actually thinks 1108 will approve that, and he answered no. I stared in disbelief and silence...

Why do we have domiciles then? Sounds like someone isn't pulling on the same side of the rope. I wonder why we don't trust them.

Or you.

P.S. I agree with Flylow. If the company wants to do away with crew food, I will gladly park my plane to go eat. The food will be better, and I can get what I want instead of being told what I can eat like a 3 year old. Until then I suggest management figures out a way to comply with 20.7 or watch the grievances pile up.

 

[RNObased]

Hey FG!

Just for the record, got my brief for tomorrow. Have to airline PIT-LAX. Hmmm........a number of nonstop flights exist on that route. Guess what I'm doing? PIT-PHX-LAX.

So what were you saying about getting us to planes faster?






Crickets........................

Hey guys, don't you know by now that FG doesn't deal with the facts??? Looking at the facts, gets in the way of gazing at the big picture.

 

[NJA Capt]

Sure, it would be nice if we could change crews in large cities. It would also be nice if we could do all of our maintenance in large cities as well. Unfortunately it just doesnt work out that way all the time. That's the fractional 'on demand' model.

You control what you can, to the best of your abilities, but there are no guarantees.

FG,
There are plenty of guarantees but people refuse to see them.

As eluded to above. You have a crew that passes through TEB or PBI in the middle of the day. Instead of changing crews in TEB/PBI, we elect to let them continue to Quincy, IL where they duty out. That afternoon, scheduling gets another crew to Quincy to pickup the plane and the first crew is stranded. The following day the 1st crew must be traveled to another aircraft effectively wasting another duty day. In addition to 4-6 airline tickets and half a duty day for each crew.

If crews were swapped in TEB when the "chance was provided," we wouldn't have wasted so much time and money.

The pilot utilization mantra is meaningless. Aircraft utilization should be the primary effort.

They've been used for neither?

I guess all that work maintenance has been doing to focus aircraft on LAX and PBI for overnight mx has just been wasted....

From our vantage point yes. I couldn't tell you the last time I picked up a plane from mx in LAX or PBI. Call LAX an see how many QS's are in mx and then call MCO, GSO, SWF, LIT, and TOL.

 

[FamilyGuy]

You want to re-read that and explain how that doesn't insult every one of us? Your "tone" implies nothing but disgust and contempt. I thought you said you had the upmost respect for the pilots at NetJets? Doesn't sound like it to me... Which side of the rope are you on?

How do you take that quote - aimed at people complaining about what are relatively minor issues - and extrapolate it into an attack on all pilots at NetJets?

Regardless of how you 'perceive' the 'tone' it is a valid point, one that you've already validated in your earlier posts...

Here's the evidence in case you've already forgotten how good you have it after a little over one year at NetJets...

I'll never go back to a regional or a major. No scheduling pressures, crew food:erm: , 7 off, decent pay (once you upgrade which if you got hired today at NJA I would assume to be between 3 to 5 years), nice aircraft, no commute (if you live in your domicile), hotel and airline points (I get about 400,000 Hilton points a year; enough for a week in Hawaii or 10 days in Orlando with the kids)

Screw the regionals!
I've been there, done that. Commuting twice a week. Sleeping in the crew lounge, or car. $40,000/year at year 3 fo and no hope for upgrade. You got a job in 6 months? Who knows. Feeling lucky to have enough time to eat at Burger King. NO THANKS!!! I will NEVER go back to the airlines. NEVER!!!

NJA is better by far. You know you will have a job in 5 years. decent hotels. No commuting. crew food + per diem. upgrade possibilities. decent pay. clean planes. 7&7 schedule. The most important point of all: you might get to fly with me.

NJA is the way to go

P.S. I agree with Flylow. If the company wants to do away with crew food, I will gladly park my plane to go eat. The food will be better, and I can get what I want instead of being told what I can eat like a 3 year old. Until then I suggest management figures out a way to comply with 20.7 or watch the grievances pile up.

Amazing how quickly some people forget the past...

 

[FamilyGuy]

FG,
There are plenty of guarantees but people refuse to see them.

As eluded to above. You have a crew that passes through TEB or PBI in the middle of the day. Instead of changing crews in TEB/PBI, we elect to let them continue to Quincy, IL where they duty out. That afternoon, scheduling gets another crew to Quincy to pickup the plane and the first crew is stranded. The following day the 1st crew must be traveled to another aircraft effectively wasting another duty day. In addition to 4-6 airline tickets and half a duty day for each crew.

If crews were swapped in TEB when the "chance was provided," we wouldn't have wasted so much time and money.

The pilot utilization mantra is meaningless. Aircraft utilization should be the primary effort.


From our vantage point yes. I couldn't tell you the last time I picked up a plane from mx in LAX or PBI. Call LAX an see how many QS's are in mx and then call MCO, GSO, SWF, LIT, and TOL.

You bring up some good points Capt. I agree that there is a lot of inefficiency in the system and we have a lot of work to do.

That's why I made the statement earlier in this thread that I haven't seen much improvement in cutting costs in some areas and improving efficiency. The opportunities are there, we need to start fixing it though. The increased utilization is generating profits and covering a lot of inefficiency. What concerns me is when the economy slows down again. Will we have used this time in the sun to improve the operation?

 

[higgy]

You bring up some good points Capt. I agree that there is a lot of inefficiency in the system and we have a lot of work to do.

That's why I made the statement earlier in this thread that I haven't seen much improvement in cutting costs in some areas and improving efficiency. The opportunities are there, we need to start fixing it though. The increased utilization is generating profits and covering a lot of inefficiency. What concerns me is when the economy slows down again. Will we have used this time in the sun to improve the operation?

Face it. If you havent fixed it by now your not going to. how long have you had? How long has this glouruous idea been floating around and you STILL can't make it work??? Dude if we did our job the way you do yours we WOULD be out of business and that is a fact!!! I'd like to hear you argue that. You guys had your chace and you failed. Face it it just dosent work. If i were you I would go back to the drawing board before the economy slows down.

 

[RNObased]

You bring up some good points Capt. I agree that there is a lot of inefficiency in the system and we have a lot of work to do.

That's why I made the statement earlier in this thread that I haven't seen much improvement in cutting costs in some areas and improving efficiency. The opportunities are there, we need to start fixing it though. The increased utilization is generating profits and covering a lot of inefficiency. What concerns me is when the economy slows down again. Will we have used this time in the sun to improve the operation?

And why do you think that the inefficiency hasn't been fixed???? Any idea???
Maybe because everyone has their own little castle and needs to protect it??? Or maybe the fact that no one in the company is accountable for anything except the folks actually driving the jets around??? This is the fact that chaps my a$$ no end. No one is accountable for any of their actions in CMH. I know of only one person to get the axe for doing some dumb stuff, but then again she cost the company millions.

Accountability.... Family Guy when we going to see some??????

 

[FamilyGuy]

Face it. If you havent fixed it by now your not going to. how long have you had? How long has this glouruous idea been floating around and you STILL can't make it work??? Dude if we did our job the way you do yours we WOULD be out of business and that is a fact!!! I'd like to hear you argue that. You guys had your chace and you failed. Face it it just dosent work. If i were you I would go back to the drawing board before the economy slows down.

Failed?

That's a pretty harsh assessment for a business model that's been in place for over 20 years and makes a profit.

The point you are missing is that we are talking about improvements. The basic model works, but we all see things that can be done better.

But I would like to hear why you think people have failed here in columbus.

utilization rate of the aircraft is 10% better than a year ago
maintenance availability is 10% higher than a year ago
we fly about about 800 flights per day. What percentage of the dispatches are incorrect?
We order over 1,000 meals a day, what percentage of orders are wrong?
We arrange hundreds of hotel rooms a day, what percentage are wrong?

What is your definition of failure?

 

[FLYLOW22]

How do you take that quote - aimed at people complaining about what are relatively minor issues - and extrapolate it into an attack on all pilots at NetJets?

Regardless of how you 'perceive' the 'tone' it is a valid point, one that you've already validated in your earlier posts...

Here's the evidence in case you've already forgotten how good you have it after a little over one year at NetJets...

Amazing how quickly some people forget the past...

You are SO right FamGhey.

We are so rude to not have included one person in our thanks; YOU!

Had YOU and your ilk NOT pissed us off so badly, we would not be enjoying the pay and benefits that, YES... the company provides but WE fought for.

Thanks for pissing us off.

Keep doing it. My accountant loves you too.