NETJETS Profits...UP UP and AWAY!

[squonk]

realityman:

I believe we all considered that a personal, negative attack.

Amen brother! It was an attack on us all and FG supported it 100%.

I thought he (FG) wasn't due for a haunting until '09?

 

[hydrarkt]

If you'll read my previous posts you'll see that I did acknowledge that a big driver in our 2006 financial results was that Europe finally turned a profit.

Also remember that Europe took a long time to grow until it was profitable (10years?), and we did not want to take on the burden of trying to grow another market until Europe was profitable.

I also remember how many times Europe losing money was brought up in the negotiations and the pilots comments at the time were 'screw Europe, we dont care about that, we want our money now'.

With that in mind, do you really want the company trying to create a new market now? If not now, then when is a good time? Especially since we will likely have renegotiations every five years?

My profit estimate was my own honest assessment, and has nothing to do with trying to set expectations. I also gave my reasoning for the lower estimate, what is your reasoning for a higher estimate? Either way, we will all know in about 9 months.

We all know that NJE grew on the backs of NJA. As a matter of fact, that was part of managment's excuse for low balling us on pay on the first CBA. That's why we said "screw Europe." And the growth of both NJE and NJA occured while managment cried POVERTY!!
Managment would not have grown both sides so fast if they didn't have huge profit expectations, huge Marquis growth and a backlog of owners.
I do think that the company should try to grow NJME, although I don't know much about that market. There's probably room for action in Asia too, though I know that airspace and infrastructure are a problem. We can grow both of those markets slowly without huge influxes of capital. Those markets won't grow like Europe did... at least not now. But a little more presence in Asia will create great visibility.
My expectations for profit are based on the first quarter turn around, continued growth, an upcoming very busy season and hopefully a better understand of holiday sell off need.
Negotiate every 5 years??? I think that 5 years is a little optimistic on your part. We grudgingly settled on 5 years this time. Don't expect it again. Do I hear 3 years??

 

[fischman]

RTFQ???

WDYRTOPYFM

Why dont you read the original point YFM (I can PM you the rest of the acronym if you need it)

I said you were a hypocrite for getting your panties in a wad about a snide comment when you've made hundreds of snide comments on this board yourself....



Now I'll challenge you to show me where I've been a 'pilot hating SOB' and came out as a 'bung hole towards this pilot group'.

I work everyday with our pilots and count many of them as friends. I have the utmost respect for the job they perform day in and day out. If you'll reread my posts you'll see that I supported them in getting a raise for their hard work.

What I did not condone, then or now, is the disrespect and arrogance displayed by some towards our chairman and his appointed executives. There is no need in negotiations to turn to personal, negative attacks. It is unprofessional and beneath this pilot group.

Mr Santulli created this industry and all the jobs we all enjoy today. He deserves better treatment than what I've seen on this board.

If you are so ungrateful why dont you just go back to USAirways?

I find it abhorrent that someone with less than 5 years with this company could be so arrogant and disrespectful to someone who basically saved your ass from the unemployment line after you were laid off by USAir.

I don't believe you.




Prove it...

 

[squonk]

hydrarkt:

Negotiate every 5 years??? I think that 5 years is a little optimistic on your part. We grudgingly settled on 5 years this time. Don't expect it again. Do I hear 3 years??

Agreed. The ball is already in motion to head this off.

If FG really had his ear to the wall, he'd know this.

 

[gutshotdraw]

I do think that the company should try to grow NJME, although I don't know much about that market.

Netjets does not own NJME (more correctly National Air Service). It is strictly a marketing and consulting arrangement. NJ provides operational expertise and is paid a fee. All capital outlays for the growth of that operation are provided by local investment (primarily Middle-East oil money). Much different arrangement than NJE.

 

[hydrarkt]

Netjets does not own NJME (more correctly National Air Service). It is strictly a marketing and consulting arrangement. NJ provides operational expertise and is paid a fee. All capital outlays for the growth of that operation are provided by local investment (primarily Middle-East oil money). Much different arrangement than NJE.

I'm curious about how it works. Can you PM me with more details? Thanks

 

[Diesel]

Hyd its pretty easy. Air services owns njme and they pay nj for use of the name, marketing expertise and and anything else. They still run the business and keep it in the saudi family (pretty sure saudi).

Check pprune for more info. There is a ton of it there.

 

[gutshotdraw]

The idea was to move all the cousins, cousins of cousins, and other more distant members of the royal family that were using Saudia Royal Flight aircraft into shared aircraft that they (actually we, as oil consumers) paid for. The program was slow out of the gate. Several NJI pilots went over to Jeddah to provide experienced help in the G-IV a few years back but have long since returned. Aircraft now include Hawkers and Falcons as well as the Gulfstream. The acceptance of the fractional model has gradually improved in the Middle East and there was a major infusion of cash last year from a local investor to try and get the program "over the hump." Personally, I think the major problem early on was basing the program in the Saudi Kingdom instead of the more westernized and secular Dubai. Nevertheless, the program seems to be improving and there have been opportunities for American expats in the operation.

 

[SquirrelDog]

Fg?

Family Guy...Why so much anger and hostility?!?!

 

[Fozzy]

Family Guy...Why so much anger and hostility?!?!

Because the chicks won't talk to him.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Family Guy...Why so much anger and hostility?!?!

No anger or hostility here. I’m actually very happy with my life. I have a great family, great friends, and a great job with a great company.

I think part of what makes me happy with what I have is that I’ve been on the other side….I’ve worked for a unionized mainline carrier and I’ve worked for crappy companies that don’t take care of their people. So when you find a good company it makes you appreciate it even more.

That said, I do find your question somewhat ironic because I've wondered the same thing about so many of the union supporters on this board. A new reader of this board could easily get the impression that NetJets is a bad place to work, what with all the angst and wringing of hands here.

Of course, what is everyone bitching about? Crew food and HBA for new hires? If that’s all you have to bitch about then life is pretty damn good.

What I do find disturbing is that so many relatively new hires (5 years or less) have no appreciation for their good fortune and just want to bitch and publicly disparage our CEO and other leaders. Many of these same whiners have actually been laid off from mainline carriers, but instead of being grateful for finding a safe harbor in this economic storm that has beset the aviation world for the last 6 years, all they can think of is recreating their airline world here.

So they’ve imported airline style bargaining, and airline union attitudes. It’s probably inevitable that the company will resort to the same tactics and use airline style bargaining practices as well. For the life of me I can’t figure out why anyone would leave a dying business model and yet try to recreate that same environment in their new home.

I, for one, want nothing of that airline mentality imported into NetJets. I’ve seen a lot of my friends work for years at a legacy carrier only to lose their jobs and receive a fraction of their benefits. Why would anyone want to replicate that model?

 

[FLYLOW22]

That said, I do find your question somewhat ironic because I've wondered the same thing about so many of the union supporters on this board. A new reader of this board could easily get the impression that NetJets is a bad place to work, what with all the angst and wringing of hands here.

Of course, what is everyone bitching about? Crew food and HBA for new hires? If that’s all you have to bitch about then life is pretty damn good.

What I do find disturbing is that so many relatively new hires (5 years or less) have no appreciation for their good fortune and just want to bitch and publicly disparage our CEO and other leaders. Many of these same whiners have actually been laid off from mainline carriers, but instead of being grateful for finding a safe harbor in this economic storm that has beset the aviation world for the last 6 years, all they can think of is recreating their airline world here.

So they’ve imported airline style bargaining, and airline union attitudes. It’s probably inevitable that the company will resort to the same tactics and use airline style bargaining practices as well. For the life of me I can’t figure out why anyone would leave a dying business model and yet try to recreate that same environment in their new home.

I, for one, want nothing of that airline mentality imported into NetJets. I’ve seen a lot of my friends work for years at a legacy carrier only to lose their jobs and receive a fraction of their benefits. Why would anyone want to replicate that model?

You make it sound as if the company GAVE us what we have in our CBA. We worked for it. We fought for it. We earned what we negotiated so please don't give credit to the company that would have just as easily had us working under 1998 wages today still had we not worked together as a cohesive unit.

Crew Food and HBAs all to bitch about? No. You say those items are trivial and they are not.

In the end, both issues getting solved are a good thing for the company even though it acts as if they are insignificant issues.

Crew Food. 1st of all the crew food program is in the CBA so it's language MUST be adhered to. Period. It's in the CBA. Collective Bargaining collateral was spent on that language by the pilot group. We will defend it as much as compensation or scheduling. 2ndly... a fed crew will fly. A hungry crew will park it or fly unsafely. Either way, not good for the company.

HBAs. This company is not attracting as many of the qualified candidates from as many geographic areas as it could with more basing options. The domicile program is actually costing as much if not more that the HBA program due to the company business model. Don't think so? Wait for the stats. The most effective Domicile for the company is CMH because, well, it's Meccha.

Nobody wants 121 mentality here at NetJets. Many of us came here to get away from 121. To accuse this pilot group of the same adgenda as ALPA is irresponsible, arrogant and ignorant on your part. I wouldn't expect anything else of you though, "Sir".

Also, I don't see any 121 carriers engaged currently (or ever for that matter) in Interest Based Bargaining. That's very un-121ish wouldn't you say???

 

[gunfyter]

Too many pilots @ Domiciles

... Domiciled pilots are being airlined out of the Domiciles. This means TOO MANY pilots are based at Domiciles. The Company receives NO BENEFIT by increasing the pilot census @ domiciles.

Smart Management would see this and excercise their right in the CBA to increase the level of pilots assigned HBA status.

This action will improve company financial performance toward the goal of $250 - $300 Million profit for 2007!

I am just thinking about the shareholders here.

 

[realityman]

FG,

Do you actually believe the crap spewing from your mouth, or are you still advancing management's position, or have you simply taken a mental break from the real world?

I've been with NJA for well over ten years now. It IS a great place to work! But FLYLOW is dead on when he says it's because of what we (the pilot group) worked very very hard to get from management. Definitely NOT because management just felt like making us happy. Treating bargaining like they do in the 121 world has nothing to do with any pilot working here, but simply because that's how NJA management wants it. I have actually BEEN HERE at NJA plenty long to have witnessed first hand many lies and broken promises from management. It's only recently that we've attained the union leadership, and backbone, to finally stand up and shout 'NO MORE!'. So in the words of most 5 year olds: They started it.

Wow! You think HBA's are an insignificant issue? We now have two groups of pilots here with different priviledges. For those new hires who choose to commute, it's additional time away from the family (which you claim is so important in your life, but which you callously dismiss as unimportant to our pilots by saying the HBA issue is insignificant), and extra money spent on commuting which could be difficult for someone on F/O wages trying to support that unimportant family. Or the newhire can move to the domicile, uprooting his/her family and moving to a place they possibly dislike but can offset those negatives by the fact that F/O wages go a loooong way in places like LA and New York (using my best sarcastic typing skills there). And I'm sure it's an easy pill for them to swallow while they watch 2500 of their co-workers be able to live wherever they want. And it's even better when all they do is airline in and out of their domicile most of the time (I don't suppose you'd like to explain what happened to the RCA plan, which is why management was crying so hard for domiciles?).

Oh sure, we the 'original' group of pilots were the ones who voted in the contract with the domiciles (well, some of us actually did vote no on our current CBA), so I'm sure you'll waste no time in blaming us for that (of course you'll overlook the whole reason it was in there is because MANAGEMENT wanted it there and not something the pilots actually came up with), but at the time and given the circumstances that we were under at that point in the bargaining process, we weren't left with too many other options. I won't go over them here because you know darn well what was happening at that point and this reply is already long enough.

You think crew food is insignificant? Well, there's another three paragraphs I'm not going to write at this time. I could spend a lot of time writing about all the ways the company has been violating that part of our CBA. Or how it's actually an important issue to have your flight crews nourished properly from a safety perspective. Or how a group of people who are dependant upon good health to keep their medicals (and therefore their careers) might need to be able to eat healthfully. And so on and so forth..........

When you feel like returning from whatever silver happy shiny place you're currently in and would care to engage in a discussion on how things REALLY affect us, let me know.

 

[hopalong]

Amen to realityman. Speaking as a newbie at NJA, I want to thank all the pilots that fought the fight to make NJA a desirable place to work. It does
not go unnoticed and is appreciated. Thank you.

 

[FamilyGuy]

You make it sound as if the company GAVE us what we have in our CBA. We worked for it. We fought for it. We earned what we negotiated so please don't give credit to the company that would have just as easily had us working under 1998 wages today still had we not worked together as a cohesive unit.

Did I ever say the pilots didnt earn it? Did I ever say the pilots didnt deserve a raise?

What I have said is that there is no reason for you or this pilot group to disparage Mr. Santulli or his appointed leaders. You know you are fortunate to be here rather than in the 121 world, so why dont you acknowlege your good fortune rather than biting the hand that feeds you?

Crew Food and HBAs all to bitch about? No. You say those items are trivial and they are not.

In the end, both issues getting solved are a good thing for the company even though it acts as if they are insignificant issues.

I didn't say they were trivial. I said that if that's all you have to bitch about this life is pretty good. Again, acknowledge that and move on rather than acting like the wheels are coming off the place.

Crew Food. 1st of all the crew food program is in the CBA so it's language MUST be adhered to. Period. It's in the CBA. Collective Bargaining collateral was spent on that language by the pilot group. We will defend it as much as compensation or scheduling. 2ndly... a fed crew will fly. A hungry crew will park it or fly unsafely. Either way, not good for the company.

Interesting. So you spent collective bargaining collateral on the crew food language?

What did you give up to get that language?

HBAs. This company is not attracting as many of the qualified candidates from as many geographic areas as it could with more basing options. The domicile program is actually costing as much if not more that the HBA program due to the company business model. Don't think so? Wait for the stats. The most effective Domicile for the company is CMH because, well, it's Meccha.

I cant wait for the stats.

Nobody wants 121 mentality here at NetJets. Many of us came here to get away from 121. To accuse this pilot group of the same adgenda as ALPA is irresponsible, arrogant and ignorant on your part. I wouldn't expect anything else of you though, "Sir".

So that's why you bring in 121 'consultants'?

That's why you use the same tactics and language?

Also, I don't see any 121 carriers engaged currently (or ever for that matter) in Interest Based Bargaining. That's very un-121ish wouldn't you say???

Evidently you aren't familiar with this US Federal Government report on Airline Labor Relations, published by the GAO in 2003:

http://www.gao.gov/htext/d03652.html

Here's the relevant excerpt for the people who don't want to read the whole report:

A part of the administrative change the Board undertook after the 1996 reports was the creation of an ADR program. Under this program, the parties have the option of using facilitated discussions, called "Interest Based Bargaining," to negotiate contracts in a non-traditional, cooperative manner. In 1997, there was one IBB case. In 2002, almost half of the cases handled at the NMB began as IBB cases.

 

[FamilyGuy]

... Domiciled pilots are being airlined out of the Domiciles. This means TOO MANY pilots are based at Domiciles. The Company receives NO BENEFIT by increasing the pilot census @ domiciles.

Pilots being airlined out of domiciles does not mean that there are too many pilots based there.

The savings from the domicile program comes from having to airline them FEWER times to get them to their NetJets aircraft.

Rather than airlining them from a remote HBA to a hub, then to their ultimate destination, they should be able to go from the hub to the destination. This results in fewer airline tickets and a faster trip to the aircraft, which means more available duty time.

 

[FamilyGuy]

So in the words of most 5 year olds: They started it.

That's comforting. Good to know we are making progress.

Wow! You think HBA's are an insignificant issue? We now have two groups of pilots here with different priviledges....... ....And I'm sure it's an easy pill for them to swallow while they watch 2500 of their co-workers be able to live wherever they want.

Well, since we are striving for equality here, why do we even need seniority?

Lets face it, there are always going to be some people who get paid more or get better benefits (vacation, preferential bidding, longevity pay, etc) because they've been here longer.

Why are you drawing a distinction between these other benefits and HBAs?

Oh sure, we the 'original' group of pilots were the ones who voted in the contract with the domiciles (well, some of us actually did vote no on our current CBA), so I'm sure you'll waste no time in blaming us for that (of course you'll overlook the whole reason it was in there is because MANAGEMENT wanted it there and not something the pilots actually came up with), but at the time and given the circumstances that we were under at that point in the bargaining process, we weren't left with too many other options. I won't go over them here because you know darn well what was happening at that point and this reply is already long enough.

That's called collective bargaining. The pilot group has asked to be represented by a common group and to bargain as a group.

Part of that process is that majority rules. More than 50% of the pilots voted for that contract language, so that's what you've agreed to live by.

Why bitch about it now?

You think crew food is insignificant? Well, there's another three paragraphs I'm not going to write at this time. I could spend a lot of time writing about all the ways the company has been violating that part of our CBA. Or how it's actually an important issue to have your flight crews nourished properly from a safety perspective. Or how a group of people who are dependant upon good health to keep their medicals (and therefore their careers) might need to be able to eat healthfully. And so on and so forth..........

Again, I've never said crew food was insignificant. I said that if that's all you have to bitch about then life is pretty good. I know a lot of other pilots in the U.S. would love to have that at the top of their list of complaints.

 

[gunfyter]

Not according to the data we are collecting.

 

[NJA Capt]

The savings from the domicile program comes from having to airline them FEWER times to get them to their NetJets aircraft.

Rather than airlining them from a remote HBA to a hub, then to their ultimate destination, they should be able to go from the hub to the destination. This results in fewer airline tickets and a faster trip to the aircraft, which means more available duty time.

If the company was interested in saving money, we would be changing crews in large cities (NJA places like PBI, MDW, TEB) instead of places like Charleston Executive and Quincy IL. It does no good to save money on one side of the equation if you are going to double it on the other. Furthermore, what is the difference in originating from a "hub/domicile" and airlining to spoke/HBA OR originating in a HBA and airlining to a hub to pick up the plane?? Other than the fact that a ticket originating at a spoke is cheaper to purchase than the one from a hub.

It is well known that major airline hubs are generally more expensive to originate trips from. Many people drive 1-2 hours away from a hub to get a cheaper ticket that connects through the same hub.

The original intent of the Domiciles was to provide a place to gather a/c for upkeep and crew changes. Since the inception of this system, they have been used for neither.