NETJETS Profits...UP UP and AWAY!

[FamilyGuy]

You make it sound as if the company GAVE us what we have in our CBA. We worked for it. We fought for it. We earned what we negotiated so please don't give credit to the company that would have just as easily had us working under 1998 wages today still had we not worked together as a cohesive unit.

Did I ever say the pilots didnt earn it? Did I ever say the pilots didnt deserve a raise?

What I have said is that there is no reason for you or this pilot group to disparage Mr. Santulli or his appointed leaders. You know you are fortunate to be here rather than in the 121 world, so why dont you acknowlege your good fortune rather than biting the hand that feeds you?

Crew Food and HBAs all to bitch about? No. You say those items are trivial and they are not.

In the end, both issues getting solved are a good thing for the company even though it acts as if they are insignificant issues.

I didn't say they were trivial. I said that if that's all you have to bitch about this life is pretty good. Again, acknowledge that and move on rather than acting like the wheels are coming off the place.

Crew Food. 1st of all the crew food program is in the CBA so it's language MUST be adhered to. Period. It's in the CBA. Collective Bargaining collateral was spent on that language by the pilot group. We will defend it as much as compensation or scheduling. 2ndly... a fed crew will fly. A hungry crew will park it or fly unsafely. Either way, not good for the company.

Interesting. So you spent collective bargaining collateral on the crew food language?

What did you give up to get that language?

HBAs. This company is not attracting as many of the qualified candidates from as many geographic areas as it could with more basing options. The domicile program is actually costing as much if not more that the HBA program due to the company business model. Don't think so? Wait for the stats. The most effective Domicile for the company is CMH because, well, it's Meccha.

I cant wait for the stats.

Nobody wants 121 mentality here at NetJets. Many of us came here to get away from 121. To accuse this pilot group of the same adgenda as ALPA is irresponsible, arrogant and ignorant on your part. I wouldn't expect anything else of you though, "Sir".

So that's why you bring in 121 'consultants'?

That's why you use the same tactics and language?

Also, I don't see any 121 carriers engaged currently (or ever for that matter) in Interest Based Bargaining. That's very un-121ish wouldn't you say???

Evidently you aren't familiar with this US Federal Government report on Airline Labor Relations, published by the GAO in 2003:

http://www.gao.gov/htext/d03652.html

Here's the relevant excerpt for the people who don't want to read the whole report:

A part of the administrative change the Board undertook after the 1996 reports was the creation of an ADR program. Under this program, the parties have the option of using facilitated discussions, called "Interest Based Bargaining," to negotiate contracts in a non-traditional, cooperative manner. In 1997, there was one IBB case. In 2002, almost half of the cases handled at the NMB began as IBB cases.

 

[FamilyGuy]

... Domiciled pilots are being airlined out of the Domiciles. This means TOO MANY pilots are based at Domiciles. The Company receives NO BENEFIT by increasing the pilot census @ domiciles.

Pilots being airlined out of domiciles does not mean that there are too many pilots based there.

The savings from the domicile program comes from having to airline them FEWER times to get them to their NetJets aircraft.

Rather than airlining them from a remote HBA to a hub, then to their ultimate destination, they should be able to go from the hub to the destination. This results in fewer airline tickets and a faster trip to the aircraft, which means more available duty time.

 

[FamilyGuy]

So in the words of most 5 year olds: They started it.

That's comforting. Good to know we are making progress.

Wow! You think HBA's are an insignificant issue? We now have two groups of pilots here with different priviledges....... ....And I'm sure it's an easy pill for them to swallow while they watch 2500 of their co-workers be able to live wherever they want.

Well, since we are striving for equality here, why do we even need seniority?

Lets face it, there are always going to be some people who get paid more or get better benefits (vacation, preferential bidding, longevity pay, etc) because they've been here longer.

Why are you drawing a distinction between these other benefits and HBAs?

Oh sure, we the 'original' group of pilots were the ones who voted in the contract with the domiciles (well, some of us actually did vote no on our current CBA), so I'm sure you'll waste no time in blaming us for that (of course you'll overlook the whole reason it was in there is because MANAGEMENT wanted it there and not something the pilots actually came up with), but at the time and given the circumstances that we were under at that point in the bargaining process, we weren't left with too many other options. I won't go over them here because you know darn well what was happening at that point and this reply is already long enough.

That's called collective bargaining. The pilot group has asked to be represented by a common group and to bargain as a group.

Part of that process is that majority rules. More than 50% of the pilots voted for that contract language, so that's what you've agreed to live by.

Why bitch about it now?

You think crew food is insignificant? Well, there's another three paragraphs I'm not going to write at this time. I could spend a lot of time writing about all the ways the company has been violating that part of our CBA. Or how it's actually an important issue to have your flight crews nourished properly from a safety perspective. Or how a group of people who are dependant upon good health to keep their medicals (and therefore their careers) might need to be able to eat healthfully. And so on and so forth..........

Again, I've never said crew food was insignificant. I said that if that's all you have to bitch about then life is pretty good. I know a lot of other pilots in the U.S. would love to have that at the top of their list of complaints.

 

[gunfyter]

Not according to the data we are collecting.

 

[NJA Capt]

The savings from the domicile program comes from having to airline them FEWER times to get them to their NetJets aircraft.

Rather than airlining them from a remote HBA to a hub, then to their ultimate destination, they should be able to go from the hub to the destination. This results in fewer airline tickets and a faster trip to the aircraft, which means more available duty time.

If the company was interested in saving money, we would be changing crews in large cities (NJA places like PBI, MDW, TEB) instead of places like Charleston Executive and Quincy IL. It does no good to save money on one side of the equation if you are going to double it on the other. Furthermore, what is the difference in originating from a "hub/domicile" and airlining to spoke/HBA OR originating in a HBA and airlining to a hub to pick up the plane?? Other than the fact that a ticket originating at a spoke is cheaper to purchase than the one from a hub.

It is well known that major airline hubs are generally more expensive to originate trips from. Many people drive 1-2 hours away from a hub to get a cheaper ticket that connects through the same hub.

The original intent of the Domiciles was to provide a place to gather a/c for upkeep and crew changes. Since the inception of this system, they have been used for neither.

 

[FamilyGuy]

If the company was interested in saving money, we would be changing crews in large cities (NJA places like PBI, MDW, TEB) instead of places like Charleston Executive and Quincy IL. It does no good to save money on one side of the equation if you are going to double it on the other.

Sure, it would be nice if we could change crews in large cities. It would also be nice if we could do all of our maintenance in large cities as well. Unfortunately it just doesnt work out that way all the time. That's the fractional 'on demand' model.

You control what you can, to the best of your abilities, but there are no guarantees.

Furthermore, what is the difference in originating from a "hub/domicile" and airlining to spoke/HBA OR originating in a HBA and airlining to a hub to pick up the plane?? Other than the fact that a ticket originating at a spoke is cheaper to purchase than the one from a hub.

It is well known that major airline hubs are generally more expensive to originate trips from. Many people drive 1-2 hours away from a hub to get a cheaper ticket that connects through the same hub.

Major 'FORTRESS' airline hubs (ATL, CVG, DTW, MSP, etc) where the dominant airline controls more than 70% of the traffic are more expensive.

How many of our domiciles are in fortress hubs?

The other difference is duty time.

The original intent of the Domiciles was to provide a place to gather a/c for upkeep and crew changes. Since the inception of this system, they have been used for neither.

They've been used for neither?

I guess all that work maintenance has been doing to focus aircraft on LAX and PBI for overnight mx has just been wasted....

 

[realityman]

FG,

Your reasoning is flawed from so many aspects it's hard to know where to begin.

First, in what way do you figure CMH, or TEB, or even PBI for that matter qualifies as a hub airport? Hubs for who? Are there even any flights on airlines out of TEB? Not sure how you figure those airports would involve fewer connections than, say, flights out of MKE (TEB usually involves a long ride to EWR). Of course, you may argue that those locations have a large number of NJA aircraft passing through them which means those domicile pilots would need to airline less. However, so far, it appears those domicile pilot are only doing slightly less airlining than HBA pilots (and PBI slows down with our aircraft a lot from spring through early fall).

Furthermore, like a true management stooge, you keep dancing around the real issue. The company was crying about how they really wanted domiciles because it would work very well with their big plans for RCA's. So I'll ask again, what happened to the RCA concept? Seems to me the number of connections needed to get to a plane had nothing to do with why they claimed they wanted domiciles. So with no RCA's, what's the point of domiciles?

Oh, and by the way, couldn't the company get more productivity out of us if we only had to airline one segment to get home too? Be able to work longer on our last day, right? Well, I lived in ATL for three years and I remember oh so many flights back to A MAJOR HUB where I was booked with connections. I live in PIT now and same stupid deal. In fact, while PIT isn't the major hub it once was, there are still many direct flights to many destinations, and yet I keep starting my tour with flights that involve connections. How does that work into your reasoning? Are you going to tell me I'm the only one this happens to?

You also ask why should we bitch about something we voted in? Oh, I don't know. Why should we have bitched about anything in the first place? Maybe to identify problem areas and then strive to make them better? Sheesh! Are you really serious with these inquiries?

And you aren't comparing apples to apples when comparing HBA's to any other benefit at NJA. The domiciled pilots have to take on a greater financial hardship/lower QOL than the HBA'd pilots because of the domicile thing. Reread my previous post about the hardships the domiciled pilots face. We're all on the same salary scale. We're all on the same vacation scale. If a fifth year captain makes $90K now, then in two years a fifth year captain will also make $90K. But if today's fifth year captain lives at an HBA, will the future fifth year guy be able to live in an HBA? Right now, doesn't look like it. It's not the same benefits for everyone, even factoring in increased benefits with seniority. It's not a fair system and it's not insignificant. You say your posts didn't say it was insignificant, but the tone of your post definitely said that!

With FLYLOW, you keep coming back to our union resorting to 121-style tactics and even using 121 negotiators or some such thing. Not sure about that, but even if we did, I say again: we were only responding in like kind to what the company was doing. If management had wanted a love-fest bargaining session, they could have had that. But they chose another route. We didn't have a whole lotta choice in our tactics (if we ever wanted a glimmer of hope that the contract would be finished and decent).

And NJA basically rescued these guys and gave them a job? Really? I'd love to see these planes fly without us. As much as most of us need our jobs, like working here, and ARE grateful, maybe it's time NJA management realized that they can't do without us either.

Hopefully, the new IBB talks will yield something in that direction.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Did I ever say the pilots didnt earn it? Did I ever say the pilots didnt deserve a raise?

If it were up to you, you'd keep us on life support, bottom of the barrel wages. Had your chance for YEARS to prove yourself otherwise. Opportunity squandered.

What I have said is that there is no reason for you or this pilot group to disparage Mr. Santulli or his appointed leaders. You know you are fortunate to be here rather than in the 121 world, so why dont you acknowlege your good fortune rather than biting the hand that feeds you?

You are not our keeper. We don't get "fed" anymore than we "feed" the company. Quit deflecting the issue towards RTS. We are directing the negative towards YOU. I believe that I am just as "lucky" to be here as the company is to enjoy my services and experience.

I didn't say they were trivial. I said that if that's all you have to bitch about this life is pretty good. Again, acknowledge that and move on rather than acting like the wheels are coming off the place.

Yes, you did. By saying that Crew Food and HBAs are all we have to complain about. I will gladly do away with the food program and spend my per diem by finding a sit down restaurant. Bring it on. See how much flying NJA does. The crew food program is contractural language. CBA language is rock solid and must be adhered to. It's an agreement that the company can't/won't follow yet demanded it be included in the CBA. Funny...

Interesting. So you spent collective bargaining collateral on the crew food language?

What did you give up to get that language?

I wasn't a negotiator but the Union NC was NOT "for" the crew food program. This was another Boisturism gone bad. In this case, it's not a matter of what WE gave up, it's what we got in some other area. Collective Bargaining is about trading. We started so far in the hole below the industry average, hell... below what trash collectors make that bargaining to our advantage was not hard.

The company had plenty of years to capitalize on our low wages. Plenty.

I cant wait for the stats.

Why would you see them? What would you do with them?

So that's why you bring in 121 'consultants'?

Not following you here champ. I bring no one to work.

That's why you use the same tactics and language?

Not following you here either. We use "tactics" and "language" as Trade Unionists... part of labor. Airline Pilots too are... one guess... Trade Unionists. GASP!!! A correlation.

Evidently you aren't familiar with this US Federal Government report on Airline Labor Relations, published by the GAO in 2003:

http://www.gao.gov/htext/d03652.html

Here's the relevant excerpt for the people who don't want to read the whole report:

A part of the administrative change the Board undertook after the 1996 reports was the creation of an ADR program. Under this program, the parties have the option of using facilitated discussions, called "Interest Based Bargaining," to negotiate contracts in a non-traditional, cooperative manner. In 1997, there was one IBB case. In 2002, almost half of the cases handled at the NMB began as IBB cases.

Yes, BEGAN you goon. Section 6 BEGAN as IBB. NO GROUP that I know of has begun IBB for the sake of IBB outside of Section 6. New one for me... but I never claimed to know it all; unlike you.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Pilots being airlined out of domiciles does not mean that there are too many pilots based there.

The savings from the domicile program comes from having to airline them FEWER times to get them to their NetJets aircraft.

Rather than airlining them from a remote HBA to a hub, then to their ultimate destination, they should be able to go from the hub to the destination. This results in fewer airline tickets and a faster trip to the aircraft, which means more available duty time.

Damn I love it when you are talking out of your ass. Your breath smells though.

Do you have any guess on how many times a Domicile pilot ends up airlining to and from their base rather than picking up a NJA plane in base? Out of 20 tours, maybe once unless they are CMH based.

Do you know how much it costs to fly from HBAville through a hub to meet up with an NJA plane vs. buying a ticket in a Domicile to go to meet the NJA plane? About the same. God I love it when you talk out of your ass!!!!

Examples from 2 minutes of surfing for prices.

LAX-RNO $202 Domicile!!!!!
SEA-RNO $201 HBA OH MY LORD!!! It's cheaper!!!!
PDX-RNO $192 HBA MY STARS N GARTERS!!! It's cheaper yet!!!
BOI-RNO $161 HBA Seeing a trend??
SAN-RNO $202 HBA FINALLY!! THE SAME PRICE!!!

But more expensive to operate out of an HBA??? Not seeing it. BUNK!!!

Let's check andother Domicile

DFW-RNO $278
SAT-RNO $283 Oh my. We broke the bank... $5.00 more.


I think that a reasonable solution that would meet the majority of needs here would be to open about 25-30 cities as Domiciles... hmmm... you know, one's with hubs or alot of service.

Yes, I'll admit that it might be more expensive to fly out of Elko, NV than Las Vegas or Seattle but you can't convince me that putting pilots in parts of the US with heavy amounts of airline service isn't a major benefit to 1st/Last day scheduling. You just can't.

 

[Hogprint]

Amazing how FamGuy shows up again now that LMRC and IBB are gearing up.

Taking the pilots pulse again eh FamGuy?

 

[DO-82 driver]

No......all he's doing is creating more "NO" votes until we get something that REALLY matters to us and not as a tool for "making scheduling more efficient".

I had to laugh when I heard that line.

 

[RNObased]

Pilots being airlined out of domiciles does not mean that there are too many pilots based there.

The savings from the domicile program comes from having to airline them FEWER times to get them to their NetJets aircraft.

Rather than airlining them from a remote HBA to a hub, then to their ultimate destination, they should be able to go from the hub to the destination. This results in fewer airline tickets and a faster trip to the aircraft, which means more available duty time.

You know something family guy, set down the Kool-Aid and think. Do you really believe the crap you spew or are you just trying to piss the pilots off??

It doesn't matter where you are based or where you are domiciled, you are going to airline 90% of the time. There is no savings, it is nothing more then a device for mangement to use as a tool next time the contract comes up.

The fact is the RCA plan is flawed for several reasons, but I will give you one that you probably aren't even aware of. The maintance at LAX is horrific. Everyone knows it and they try to bring nothing but little stuff to them because they can't deal with anything but the easy stuff. The fact is that you love to talk about stuff that you don't have much of a clue about.

I can't wait to see what other great plans come out of the brain trust back in CMH. Maybe showing the pilots at the FBO early in the morning to break them during contract talks, or maybe let's hire capts off the streets oh damn forgot, you already tried that and it failed and cost mangement people their jobs also.

 

[realityman]

Hey FG!

Just for the record, got my brief for tomorrow. Have to airline PIT-LAX. Hmmm........a number of nonstop flights exist on that route. Guess what I'm doing? PIT-PHX-LAX.

So what were you saying about getting us to planes faster?






Crickets........................

 

[x402]

Hey FG!

Just for the record, got my brief for tomorrow. Have to airline PIT-LAX. Hmmm........a number of nonstop flights exist on that route. Guess what I'm doing? PIT-PHX-LAX.

So what were you saying about getting us to planes faster?






Crickets........................

You're just not seeing the big picture:nuts:

 

[pilotpat]

Crickets........................

Priceless...LOL :smash: