NetJets Pilots to Picket Meeting of Berkshire Hathaway Shareholders

[CatYaaak]

Wait a minute Cat. In a different post you talk about not expecting to be paid a reasonable salary and having time off. In this post you say having time off and being unproductive is well worth every penny they pay you. Talking in circles again? Which is it? Your arrogance speaks for it'self. You can be replaced like every other pilot in this world. What country did you say you were from? Start practicing those Lunar Landings.

Work on those comprehension skills. I said that in ASAPs reckoning, I'd be deemed "unproductive". This reckoning, however, only matters to those that buy into ASAPs airline-esque equation...namely......you and your co-workers who have an agenda for pretending it's valid. Everyone else, namely the "NBAA average salary world" that you apply this equation to because that's the salary you want, knows it's a bogus measure of productivity because 1) corporate ops aren't related to directly generating revenue like you are, so not tied to that model, and 2) in the corporate world people are paid to be on the job, whether that involves flying that day or not, let alone how many hours. Company time is company time.....you guys don't come anywhere near what the norm is.

The reality is I'm very productive measured by the valid equation, not ASAPs insipid apples-to-oranges one.

I'm not arrogant, but definitely all-American, and know full-well I can be replaced (I've replaced a few myself) but there are much larger concerns I deal with at work than that. One thing for sure though, Oh Wise One.... while it may indeed happen, it'll never be by you.

 

[netjetwife]

'Yaaak, reread the posts made by Slow and CYL. They show a very good understanding of the situation. Perhaps I threw you off by my use of the word "joke"? Think dark humor used to combat stress. Absolutely correct, is the viewpoint that the pilots are using the company's sales pitch against them in the War of the Words. Let there be no mistake about it--that is exactly what is currently going on. I am sorry that you feel other pilots were caught in the cross-fire. The brochure which ASAP passed out was not written for them. You will find nothing disrespectful on the website created to help other pilots who have questions about NJA--www.asapflightdeck.com I should also point out that owners and other NJ employees should now visit a different site for updates-- www.nj6s.com If SU held other pilots in as low regard as you say, 'Yaaak, they wouldn't be reaching out to them as they are.

It isn't fair to judge NJ pilots' professional bearing ON THE JOB, by their responses to your provocative posts, 'Yaaak. Do recall that I went to Omaha and met some of these very pilots. They had no problem letting the designated spokesman speak for them and walked the line like the professionals they are. Frankly, 'Yaaak, you make a habit of bringing the worst out in them. Your articulately worded insults are offensive, nonetheless. I did not miss your statement about my husband, and I found your characterization of the NJ struggle as a "Pity Party" to be particularly objectionable. As was pointed out to you, their responses were in keeping with human nature.

The NJ pilots and their families are in the midst of a long drawn-out fight for fair wages. No one should be surprised that off the job we will see signs of "battle fatigue" and short tempers. If you will refrain from calling them whiners and suggesting that their efforts to improve a bad situation are nothing more than a "squabble" then perhaps they will cease the name-calling. Our complaints are valid. A civil tone and a show of support will go far towards raising the "Maturity Boat". In other words, please stop throwing bricks in the boat. You aren't helping matters. These are tough times for the NJ pilots/families and it will likely get worse before it gets better. The pilots are showing great resolve, but we would be fool-hardy to think that it won't be tested by management.

 

[CatYaaak]

CatYaak

I've actually enjoyed most of your posts, and in fact find you quite amusing, but what is your end game?

You have obviously managed to isolate yourself quite nicely; few are seeing your point of view on a fractional address at this message board...so, now what?

You say you have an adoring wife who has sacrificed much so that you can be a white slave to a bank account. Must she endure nights of further boredom and frustration as you play mental masturbation on a computer key board?

Your billable rate as a corporate pilot is, as you have indicated, would work out quite high as an hourly. Is this something you really want getting out? What other inefficiencies of your company's operations should the shareholders be privvy to? Is it time that they reevaluated those efficiencies and considered shutting down their flight department?

You have said in the past that the fractional model doesn't work. That's strange:- 5,000 owners disagree! So you say we don't deserve more because we produce more "billable" hours per year? That's a strange economic perspective, not on our union's part but your own.

Please enlighten us further as to your wealth of knowledge of this accounting. Do you work for Arthur Anderson?!!

I'm guilty of over-posting today, so I'll address your legitimate questions one-by-one.

1) I'll try as many engame moves as it takes to achieve complete global domination.

2) See previous response

3a) I didn't say I had an adoring wife...having a wife would anger my concubines. And far from being bored and frustrated, they are in fact sleeping happily...all worn out after a long, hard day at "the office".

3b) You use the term "white slave" as if there's something wrong with that. Don't knock it until you've lived in the kind of foreign country where "fun" without females consists of...of...of......well, nothing.

3c) which is the reason I use this computer interaction... to help me be well-rounded, because despite their gracious, giving attitudes, they really don't mentally challenge me, it's not their forte', and no way could I ever teach any of them to play chess. Even the smartest one...she'd giggle way too much and distract me. Still, when you receive gifts from your employer, it's rude to be picky.

3d) "mastrubation"......no need. For further information, see responses 3a, 3b, and 3c.

4) My current flight department doesn't answer to shareholders. They have no shareholders, and now that I think of it, barring a honest-to-god, full-blown, shootin' kind of Revolution just like in the movies or news stock footage, they don't answer to anyone. Even referring to it as a "company" is kind of a loose, non-accurate term. Inefficiencies?......man, I could tell you some stories!..........but of course I'd never break that confidence, because that's also part of the deal that comes with a good salary.

5a) Au contraire mon ami, I've stated many times that the frac model works well and is probably the best option for a certain niche market. I've only stated that if you raise costs to the customer, the niche will shrink, because other alternatives make more sense economically for those on the high or low-end bubbles. It's not like you offer the best service possible...you have inherent disadvantages built into your scheme, especially for what you can buy on the high-end.

5b) But I only bring this point up to those using the "pass costs along to them, the rich can pay more" refrain, who don't seem to realize that wealthy people and certainly successful companies usually don't get that way by being stupid, or unwilling to adapt to changing conditions. They'll find or go back to options that are more appealing. After all, aviation ain't white slavery....you can't just keep people around and handy by your mere say-so.

5c) I've always said you deserve more...but that's because you're pilots. I've only pointed out is the flaw in comparing either the job or the salary to corporate flight departments..the differences that come with you guys being hamstrung by being involved in directly generating revenue in a model that was in-part structured on (and therefore depends on) low labor costs. Corporate pilots don't have "billable" hours or customers or even remotely resembles that model. That's just a basic reality of the type of company you went to work for, it's nothing personal. Due to (see responses 5a and 5b), your best bet is finding the money as it exists....your second best, riskier option is trying to wring more out of the customer. You can educate them, but so much of what I see here is B.S., trying to be passed off as "education". Most of them are way smarter than me, you're not going to fool them with B.S. when it concerns their bank accounts. You have to use things that are legitimate.

6) Honestly, I've been suprised that enlightenment has been needed at all. Employees should know about the business they're engaged in, especially when claiming to be professionals deserving professional salaries facing-off with people who invented the business. It's for your own good to know it. It seems silly and counterproductive to me that so many trounce out any statement, any comparison, and expect it to be believed. A couple posts ago, a guy asks me to....and with no sense of irony whatsoever...prove a negative about a the ludicrous statement on safety coming from his camp, as if that's persuasive. What's scary is that he probably thinks he can get by in Life by demanding such nonsensicle things. Wow, is he in for a suprise! The thread here is rife with other, similar absurdly emotional, tangental responses...so many that if Aristotle were to re-appear on earth from the past he'd take one look around and immediately commit suicide, thinking he'd failed in promoting that whole...you know..."Logic Thing". For the sake of you all, I hope those tactics aren't used when you sit down for serious talks, because my long-dead grandma could whittle you down to nothing using a garden hoe through the giant chinks in that armor.

7) No, I never worked for Arthur Anderson, but now that you mention it, I think the giggly one asleep in the other room used to be a CPA or something for them prior to the hard times. Hmmm...if I ever do teach her how to play, I'll have to remember to never leave her alone in the room with the chessboard while a game's in progress.

 

[TonyC]

There are very few "full time" jobs in or outside aviation where your time is completely your own and untethered to the workplace 25 weeks out of the year. ... (and the argument that he's away from home when he's working.....well, he's a pilot, and it kind of goes with the territory).

You'd think a pilot, of all people, would know and respect that territory. "Completely your own [time] ... and untethered to the workplace"? HAA! Try not showing up at the workplace (airplane) when it's time to go. Talkin' 'bout makin' yourself look SILLY!


A typical wage-earner that gives 40 hours a week, every week, with 2 weeks of vacation will be away from home 2,000 hours each year.



A pilot who spends half of every month on the road will spend 4,380 hours away from home each year. 1,460 of those hours will be spent sleeping in a bed not his own.



If you're not at home to tuck the kids in bed, you're working.




.

 

[CatYaaak]

​

​

I have a PDF document. "NETJETS PILOTS -- The best in the sky" ​

http://marquisjet.com/pdf/pilotwhite.pdf​

The answer Mr Caat is looking for is contained therein.

Now the document doesn't say you suck ... it just says we are best. (So by inference...)

ASAP is turning it around on the company and want to know why those less trained (by inference because we are more trained) less safe (by inference)... why are they paid so much more when you say we are the best?

Now Mr Caat be nice be honest.... I am being very gentlemanly in this post...You understand what they are doing... don't you.

The ASAP statements were not directed to you. They are used in an argument to hoist our foes by their own petards.



You hate Unions and You hate ASAP. Fine but on this point you are presenting a false argument.​

Here's a gentlemanly answer..a nice, honest one.

I understand what you're doing. It's very obvious when someone is drawing inferences that play to their own agendas. Your company does it, and your pilot group is now doing it, but to the the point of denigrating the safety record and culture of another pilot group, without cause, and they did it while knowing the company doesn't even really believe "the best pilots" sales pitch.

How can you "hoist your foes on their own petards" when they're fully aware they themselves are full of it? You can't, so it's clear that the real consumer of ASAPs safety inference is the same as the "best pilots" sales pitch...the owners...which brings us right back into the realm of denigrating the reputation of another pilot group to non-peers. It's patently obvious that it's not something that was meant to stay between you and your management.

It's repeatedly implied here by many that this denigration is Righteous...and not even based on facts (including the more-trained claim) which are never forthcoming..... but for self-serving excuses that range from "it's no big deal", to "you don't understand what we're doing" , to "battle fatigue" (although those of us who've been shot at won't buy that last one).

The inference process is always shaky at best, but where it led with regards to using another pilot group as a point of comaparison in the way ASAP does to simply strike a chord isn't gentlemanly, isn't nice, and in this case, certainly isn't honest. Yet, you ask those things of me....one of that group, and others actually want carte blanche support. Am I supposed to pretend that I'm part of an aviation vacumn that evidently some think exists outside the NJA world?

It's also not gentlemanly to assert that I "hate unions" knowing that it will strike a chord with some. As you well know, I've never said that, and been a member myself. That's not unlike Grizz telling others that I "hold all NJA pilots in contempt", which is of course ridiculous. He declares this to them because I find him hypocritical on many counts. He hopes to persuade people I don't even know to believe it, and therefore call into question anything I say on that basis alone, and that it will somehow dilute my opinion of him. Frankly, it only reinforces it.

And that's about as nice as I can say it.

 

[holden1]

AVBase Coverage Today

This is from today's AVBase - not sure if there has been any other press coverage:

NetJets Pilots Picket Shareholders



By Mary Grady
Newswriter, Editor

Over 70 NetJets pilots formed a picket line outside the Berkshire Hathaway shareholders' meeting in Omaha, Neb., on Saturday. The pilots passed out leaflets about their ongoing efforts to negotiate a contract with the fractional airline, a subsidiary of Warren Buffett's conglomerate. "Our issues have seemingly fallen on deaf ears," pilot Alan Hayes said in a news release. "While all of these investors are enjoying the fruits of our labor, our pilots struggle to make ends meet." Hayes said that NetJets pilots, who are represented by the Teamsters union, are paid about half of the industry average compared to other pilots flying the same equipment. The pilots have been negotiating since 2001, when their last contract came up for renewal. "Eighteen percent of our pilots make a salary that qualifies them for public assistance," said Nick Reyer, a Teamsters official. "That is unacceptable." More than 80 percent of the 2,000 NetJets pilots rejected a contract proposal in August 2004.

​

 

[realityman]

Oh man, it's early, but what the heck, I'll give it one more shot. Yaak, I never said we were actually safer or better trained. I said, the COMPANY makes those claims. As for my examples of training, I knew you'd come back and tell me about your wonderful job where you do those things too, or how you can turn down trips with impunity. The point is, it's not all about YOU. Many corporate jobs don't do that kind of training. And many corporate operators don't turn down trips when they're tired. As a result, are we safer? Again, I only say maybe. The value of that training only becomes clear when you actually need to use it, and we're all hoping it never comes to that.


Yes, the GIII in Aspen was charter. Okay, how about the Gulfstream in Palwaukee? No,that wasn't a fatigue issue. Maybe I misinterpreted some of the reports I read, but it seemed to be mixing pilots from two different flight departments that had different SOP's that contributed to the accident. I don't recall reading anything about a mechanical problem with the plane. But it was definitely corporate, not charter. And no, I'm not going to sit here and list bunches of accidents and turn this into a three page post. Still, does this mean your average corporate flight department is less safe than NJA? No it doesn't.

I think the biggest thing you're put off by is our union throwing the company's words back in their face. It is not intended to denigrate any other pilots out there. It is not sneaky or mean. And it's not meant for any purpose other than helping to negotiate a better contract for us (of which compensation is only a part). And the fact that you think our union is doing nothing but using NBAA wages as their baseline shows that you don't really have any idea of how they're negotiating. If anything, they're using the company's own wages against them (think NJI, EJM, NJE, etc.....). Did you know that Netjets Europe pilots, whose operation still isn't profitable, who fly less hours than we do, and who do THE EXACT SAME THING AS WE DO FOR THE SAME OWNERS AND COMPANY, get paid nearly twice what we do. Using that information plays a much bigger part in their tactics than comparing us to other corporate operators.

Finally, my observation is that you seem to feel that in any situation, if you don't like it, quit. That's an interesting attitude. And not altogether incorrect. At my last flying job, we had no written contract. We were pushed hard to fly when fatigued, and to fly planes that weren't always in the best of condition. We also had no union. Many of us made it a point to bring up these problems with the company, and also tried for better compensation (when I left there and came to NJA as a co-pilot, I didn't take a pay cut,a nd I was captain on several jets at my former employer). We were basically told "too bad". We had no power whatsoever to make improvements. So, I quit. But now I work for a company where we, the pilot group, have the ability to make things better. Should we just quit? Because that's the advice you keep dishing out to the folks who seem unhappy at Netjets. If you don't like it, quit. Why not "if you don't like it, try to improve it"?

Ah well. The game is on and no amount of rhetoric on this board is going to alter anything. No one knows how this will end, but we can always hope for the best.

Oh, by the way, Grizz is not our leader. He's just one of themany outspoken pilots we have at NJA. See? Anyone can draw incorrect conclusions.

 

[CatYaaak]

You'd think a pilot, of all people, would know and respect that territory. "Completely your own [time] ... and untethered to the workplace"? HAA! Try not showing up at the workplace (airplane) when it's time to go. Talkin' 'bout makin' yourself look SILLY!


A typical wage-earner that gives 40 hours a week, every week, with 2 weeks of vacation will be away from home 2,000 hours each year.



A pilot who spends half of every month on the road will spend 4,380 hours away from home each year. 1,460 of those hours will be spent sleeping in a bed not his own.



If you're not at home to tuck the kids in bed, you're working.

.

Good arithmetic, but you don't get it. Since they initiated this comparison to corporate jobs, and you've now questioned my response, not seeing one in your experience, I'll give you a quick run-down on why your statement is silly and leads to handing ammunition to employers for lowering pay. This is the deal....

If I'm at home tucking in the kids, but have to answer the phone and fly away if it rings, that's not being "off", that's working. That's working even if I do it for a week and fly zero hours. That's working every day if Ifly 100 hours per year and do 10 RONs. Basically what ASAP is saying when they use the hours-flown comparison to forward their agenda using their airline-esque version of "productivity" while seeking corporate pay, and likewise you with your time-away arithmetic, is say it's NOT working.

The reason corporate pilot pay is high even though the hours flown are low, is because compansation has been insisted upon and accepted that hours flown, or time spent away from home, are NOT the measure of the job. The position itself is, whether they decide to fly my a$$ off or let me rot, the salary is the same. I'm not building hours...I don't give a sh1t how much I fly. I care about pay, and time-off to do whatever I want to do. Tell me that being at home tucking in the kids means that I'm not working if it's not a scheduled off-day, and I'll laugh, because if I get called I DO have to show up at the airplane. Ihave to plan around that contingency. It's no different that sitting reserve. Is sitting reserve and not getting called, not work either?

By your standard, companies would, and did, pay less...because the "look-back" accounting made it seems like the pilots worked little. This isn't friggin' hourly wages, it's a salary, and in the corporate world, you look forward to scheduled days off.....because otherwise, you're on company time, whether spent at home or lounging for a week in Phuket. He11, there's even people out there that think that's a vacation because you didnt do any flying while you were there.

It took a long time to overcome that crap. It's the same crap when people take contract work and accept lower pay during the days they sit than the days they fly the plane. Mostly ex-airline guys, because they are still locked into that "flying is working" productivity mindset. In other words, clueless and self-defeating, lowering he standard. I swear, where do you guys come up with this stuff?

Will you guys ever shake that hourly-wage mindset, where pay has something to do with block times or where you happen to be? That "work" is defined by if you flew that day? None of those things matter in the jobs you're comparing yourselves to.

 

[El Chupacabra]

It's also not gentlemanly to assert that I "hate unions" knowing that it will strike a chord with some. As you well know, I've never said that, and been a member myself. That's not unlike Grizz telling others that I "hold all NJA pilots in contempt", which is of course ridiculous. He declares this to them because I find him hypocritical on many counts. He hopes to persuade people I don't even know to believe it, and therefore call into question anything I say on that basis alone, and that it will somehow dilute my opinion of him. Frankly, it only reinforces it.

And that's about as nice as I can say it.


​

You did a good job. Thankyou. If I have misrepresented your position on unions and NJA pilots... I apologize. It must be either your accent or distortion in my headset that makes me hear what you say that way. I respect but disagree with some of the positions you hold.

My dispute and ASAP's fight is not with you or any other pilot group or class of pilots. Its not with any group or class of employees. It is strictly with the very upper levels of our own management.

 

[Grizz]

Oh, by the way, Grizz is not our leader. He's just one of themany outspoken pilots we have at NJA.

Boy isn't that the truth. If there has ever been a more un-political guy than myself, I've yet to meet him. Because of my sometimes sharp tongue (especially after a beer or two), I couldn't get elected dog-catcher. You'll never see my name on a ballot for anything. That being said, I'm passionate about our cause and I work hard at changing things here at NetJets. I try to offer assistance to my brother and sister pilots where I can. I'm also not afraid to put my name behind my statements - something most of the detractors on this message board are unwilling to do.

CatYaaak and his ilk that get on this board and do nothing more than denegrate NetJets pilots and their efforts to get a better contract are worth none of our time. Soon enough, they along with NJA management will get a very clear idea of how unified this pilot force really is. I might even take him off ignore just to see him admit that we were able to pull off what he keeps calling our impossible dream.

 

[DO-82 driver]

Cat Yaaak is on the outside looking in and deep down he wishes he could be part of this movement. He's suspects that the pilots of NetJets WILL be the leaders in this industry and I think he's a bit worried that he's going to miss out...if he hasn't already.


Yaaak is entertaining ...but nothing more than that. I guess sitting on the sidelines is the best he can do......It takes courage to stand in our shoes.

I hope I'm around if he writes something really insightful and worth reading.

 

[Live4flyng]

Yaaak is entertaining ...but nothing more than that. I guess sitting on the sidelines is the best he can do......It takes courage to stand in our shoes.

I hope I'm around if he writes something really insightful and worth reading.

AGREED! He is a master at typing hundreds of words with very little meaning or content. He selectively answers questions in an attempt to elicite dissention. Fifteen minutes from now this post will be highlighted with another useless response from Cat.

 

[netjetwife]

New Day New Jet--

I got this comparison from one of our fine aviators. Those of you who keep trying to tell me that the pilots can't fight because they have few other options, need to have a reality check. And the company really needs to wake up. NJ pilots are not greedy. They are merely asking for fair wages that reflect their abilities and contribution to the NJ mission. "Fair" has yet to be agreed upon, but we ALL know what it is NOT. I find it particularly interesting that the company does not put the pilots' wages in their propaganda to the other employees. Not surprising, but very telling!

A NJA FO on the 17 day schedule works 12 hours a day without overtime.

Thats 2448 hours a year.

If instead he worked at WalMart at the average hourly pay there...

He would earn nearly $10/hr for 2080 hours

And an overtime rater of $15/hr for the remaining 368 hours.

Do the math thats $26,275 for the WalMart worker. Or fly as FO at NJA for not even $2k more and spend 180 nights a year in hotels away from home.

I'll make it more exact for you. First year pay for a NJA FO is currently $27,108 which is only $833 more than the Walmart worker earns. I think the pilot that gave me the comparison must have been using the failed TA numbers.

Note to 'Yaaak: that was my analogy saying we sometimes see "battle fatigue" among the pilots at NJ. We all know there are many types of fights and my use of the term does not extend beyond the contract battle. We have a number of deployed NJ pilots that post on the board and cheer us on in the "fight at home". Our use of these terms shows how important our cause is to us and are never intended to trivialize real combat.

 

[Fracster]

Catyaak is a moron. Eveyrone knows this so just place him on your ignore list and lets move on.

He relishes the fact that people give him the time of day.

Times up!

 

[TonyC]

If I'm at home tucking in the kids, but have to answer the phone and fly away if it rings, that's not being "off", that's working. That's working even if I do it for a week and fly zero hours.

You're arguing with a point I did not make. It serves no purpose if your argument is convincing. You've only defeated a straw man.



I simply pointed out that the common worker's objection, the objection that you suggest utterly defeats the pilot when he mentions he works "half the month," is not a valid objection at all, and can be easily countered. Your point about time "on call" only bolsters my claim. Feel free to add those hour to the 4,380 hours I calculated.