NetJets Pilots to Picket Meeting of Berkshire Hathaway Shareholders

[holden1]

AVBase Coverage Today

This is from today's AVBase - not sure if there has been any other press coverage:

NetJets Pilots Picket Shareholders



By Mary Grady
Newswriter, Editor

Over 70 NetJets pilots formed a picket line outside the Berkshire Hathaway shareholders' meeting in Omaha, Neb., on Saturday. The pilots passed out leaflets about their ongoing efforts to negotiate a contract with the fractional airline, a subsidiary of Warren Buffett's conglomerate. "Our issues have seemingly fallen on deaf ears," pilot Alan Hayes said in a news release. "While all of these investors are enjoying the fruits of our labor, our pilots struggle to make ends meet." Hayes said that NetJets pilots, who are represented by the Teamsters union, are paid about half of the industry average compared to other pilots flying the same equipment. The pilots have been negotiating since 2001, when their last contract came up for renewal. "Eighteen percent of our pilots make a salary that qualifies them for public assistance," said Nick Reyer, a Teamsters official. "That is unacceptable." More than 80 percent of the 2,000 NetJets pilots rejected a contract proposal in August 2004.

​

 

[realityman]

Oh man, it's early, but what the heck, I'll give it one more shot. Yaak, I never said we were actually safer or better trained. I said, the COMPANY makes those claims. As for my examples of training, I knew you'd come back and tell me about your wonderful job where you do those things too, or how you can turn down trips with impunity. The point is, it's not all about YOU. Many corporate jobs don't do that kind of training. And many corporate operators don't turn down trips when they're tired. As a result, are we safer? Again, I only say maybe. The value of that training only becomes clear when you actually need to use it, and we're all hoping it never comes to that.


Yes, the GIII in Aspen was charter. Okay, how about the Gulfstream in Palwaukee? No,that wasn't a fatigue issue. Maybe I misinterpreted some of the reports I read, but it seemed to be mixing pilots from two different flight departments that had different SOP's that contributed to the accident. I don't recall reading anything about a mechanical problem with the plane. But it was definitely corporate, not charter. And no, I'm not going to sit here and list bunches of accidents and turn this into a three page post. Still, does this mean your average corporate flight department is less safe than NJA? No it doesn't.

I think the biggest thing you're put off by is our union throwing the company's words back in their face. It is not intended to denigrate any other pilots out there. It is not sneaky or mean. And it's not meant for any purpose other than helping to negotiate a better contract for us (of which compensation is only a part). And the fact that you think our union is doing nothing but using NBAA wages as their baseline shows that you don't really have any idea of how they're negotiating. If anything, they're using the company's own wages against them (think NJI, EJM, NJE, etc.....). Did you know that Netjets Europe pilots, whose operation still isn't profitable, who fly less hours than we do, and who do THE EXACT SAME THING AS WE DO FOR THE SAME OWNERS AND COMPANY, get paid nearly twice what we do. Using that information plays a much bigger part in their tactics than comparing us to other corporate operators.

Finally, my observation is that you seem to feel that in any situation, if you don't like it, quit. That's an interesting attitude. And not altogether incorrect. At my last flying job, we had no written contract. We were pushed hard to fly when fatigued, and to fly planes that weren't always in the best of condition. We also had no union. Many of us made it a point to bring up these problems with the company, and also tried for better compensation (when I left there and came to NJA as a co-pilot, I didn't take a pay cut,a nd I was captain on several jets at my former employer). We were basically told "too bad". We had no power whatsoever to make improvements. So, I quit. But now I work for a company where we, the pilot group, have the ability to make things better. Should we just quit? Because that's the advice you keep dishing out to the folks who seem unhappy at Netjets. If you don't like it, quit. Why not "if you don't like it, try to improve it"?

Ah well. The game is on and no amount of rhetoric on this board is going to alter anything. No one knows how this will end, but we can always hope for the best.

Oh, by the way, Grizz is not our leader. He's just one of themany outspoken pilots we have at NJA. See? Anyone can draw incorrect conclusions.

 

[CatYaaak]

You'd think a pilot, of all people, would know and respect that territory. "Completely your own [time] ... and untethered to the workplace"? HAA! Try not showing up at the workplace (airplane) when it's time to go. Talkin' 'bout makin' yourself look SILLY!


A typical wage-earner that gives 40 hours a week, every week, with 2 weeks of vacation will be away from home 2,000 hours each year.



A pilot who spends half of every month on the road will spend 4,380 hours away from home each year. 1,460 of those hours will be spent sleeping in a bed not his own.



If you're not at home to tuck the kids in bed, you're working.

.

Good arithmetic, but you don't get it. Since they initiated this comparison to corporate jobs, and you've now questioned my response, not seeing one in your experience, I'll give you a quick run-down on why your statement is silly and leads to handing ammunition to employers for lowering pay. This is the deal....

If I'm at home tucking in the kids, but have to answer the phone and fly away if it rings, that's not being "off", that's working. That's working even if I do it for a week and fly zero hours. That's working every day if Ifly 100 hours per year and do 10 RONs. Basically what ASAP is saying when they use the hours-flown comparison to forward their agenda using their airline-esque version of "productivity" while seeking corporate pay, and likewise you with your time-away arithmetic, is say it's NOT working.

The reason corporate pilot pay is high even though the hours flown are low, is because compansation has been insisted upon and accepted that hours flown, or time spent away from home, are NOT the measure of the job. The position itself is, whether they decide to fly my a$$ off or let me rot, the salary is the same. I'm not building hours...I don't give a sh1t how much I fly. I care about pay, and time-off to do whatever I want to do. Tell me that being at home tucking in the kids means that I'm not working if it's not a scheduled off-day, and I'll laugh, because if I get called I DO have to show up at the airplane. Ihave to plan around that contingency. It's no different that sitting reserve. Is sitting reserve and not getting called, not work either?

By your standard, companies would, and did, pay less...because the "look-back" accounting made it seems like the pilots worked little. This isn't friggin' hourly wages, it's a salary, and in the corporate world, you look forward to scheduled days off.....because otherwise, you're on company time, whether spent at home or lounging for a week in Phuket. He11, there's even people out there that think that's a vacation because you didnt do any flying while you were there.

It took a long time to overcome that crap. It's the same crap when people take contract work and accept lower pay during the days they sit than the days they fly the plane. Mostly ex-airline guys, because they are still locked into that "flying is working" productivity mindset. In other words, clueless and self-defeating, lowering he standard. I swear, where do you guys come up with this stuff?

Will you guys ever shake that hourly-wage mindset, where pay has something to do with block times or where you happen to be? That "work" is defined by if you flew that day? None of those things matter in the jobs you're comparing yourselves to.

 

[El Chupacabra]

It's also not gentlemanly to assert that I "hate unions" knowing that it will strike a chord with some. As you well know, I've never said that, and been a member myself. That's not unlike Grizz telling others that I "hold all NJA pilots in contempt", which is of course ridiculous. He declares this to them because I find him hypocritical on many counts. He hopes to persuade people I don't even know to believe it, and therefore call into question anything I say on that basis alone, and that it will somehow dilute my opinion of him. Frankly, it only reinforces it.

And that's about as nice as I can say it.


​

You did a good job. Thankyou. If I have misrepresented your position on unions and NJA pilots... I apologize. It must be either your accent or distortion in my headset that makes me hear what you say that way. I respect but disagree with some of the positions you hold.

My dispute and ASAP's fight is not with you or any other pilot group or class of pilots. Its not with any group or class of employees. It is strictly with the very upper levels of our own management.

 

[Grizz]

Oh, by the way, Grizz is not our leader. He's just one of themany outspoken pilots we have at NJA.

Boy isn't that the truth. If there has ever been a more un-political guy than myself, I've yet to meet him. Because of my sometimes sharp tongue (especially after a beer or two), I couldn't get elected dog-catcher. You'll never see my name on a ballot for anything. That being said, I'm passionate about our cause and I work hard at changing things here at NetJets. I try to offer assistance to my brother and sister pilots where I can. I'm also not afraid to put my name behind my statements - something most of the detractors on this message board are unwilling to do.

CatYaaak and his ilk that get on this board and do nothing more than denegrate NetJets pilots and their efforts to get a better contract are worth none of our time. Soon enough, they along with NJA management will get a very clear idea of how unified this pilot force really is. I might even take him off ignore just to see him admit that we were able to pull off what he keeps calling our impossible dream.

 

[DO-82 driver]

Cat Yaaak is on the outside looking in and deep down he wishes he could be part of this movement. He's suspects that the pilots of NetJets WILL be the leaders in this industry and I think he's a bit worried that he's going to miss out...if he hasn't already.


Yaaak is entertaining ...but nothing more than that. I guess sitting on the sidelines is the best he can do......It takes courage to stand in our shoes.

I hope I'm around if he writes something really insightful and worth reading.

 

[Live4flyng]

Yaaak is entertaining ...but nothing more than that. I guess sitting on the sidelines is the best he can do......It takes courage to stand in our shoes.

I hope I'm around if he writes something really insightful and worth reading.

AGREED! He is a master at typing hundreds of words with very little meaning or content. He selectively answers questions in an attempt to elicite dissention. Fifteen minutes from now this post will be highlighted with another useless response from Cat.

 

[netjetwife]

New Day New Jet--

I got this comparison from one of our fine aviators. Those of you who keep trying to tell me that the pilots can't fight because they have few other options, need to have a reality check. And the company really needs to wake up. NJ pilots are not greedy. They are merely asking for fair wages that reflect their abilities and contribution to the NJ mission. "Fair" has yet to be agreed upon, but we ALL know what it is NOT. I find it particularly interesting that the company does not put the pilots' wages in their propaganda to the other employees. Not surprising, but very telling!

A NJA FO on the 17 day schedule works 12 hours a day without overtime.

Thats 2448 hours a year.

If instead he worked at WalMart at the average hourly pay there...

He would earn nearly $10/hr for 2080 hours

And an overtime rater of $15/hr for the remaining 368 hours.

Do the math thats $26,275 for the WalMart worker. Or fly as FO at NJA for not even $2k more and spend 180 nights a year in hotels away from home.

I'll make it more exact for you. First year pay for a NJA FO is currently $27,108 which is only $833 more than the Walmart worker earns. I think the pilot that gave me the comparison must have been using the failed TA numbers.

Note to 'Yaaak: that was my analogy saying we sometimes see "battle fatigue" among the pilots at NJ. We all know there are many types of fights and my use of the term does not extend beyond the contract battle. We have a number of deployed NJ pilots that post on the board and cheer us on in the "fight at home". Our use of these terms shows how important our cause is to us and are never intended to trivialize real combat.

 

[Fracster]

Catyaak is a moron. Eveyrone knows this so just place him on your ignore list and lets move on.

He relishes the fact that people give him the time of day.

Times up!

 

[TonyC]

If I'm at home tucking in the kids, but have to answer the phone and fly away if it rings, that's not being "off", that's working. That's working even if I do it for a week and fly zero hours.

You're arguing with a point I did not make. It serves no purpose if your argument is convincing. You've only defeated a straw man.



I simply pointed out that the common worker's objection, the objection that you suggest utterly defeats the pilot when he mentions he works "half the month," is not a valid objection at all, and can be easily countered. Your point about time "on call" only bolsters my claim. Feel free to add those hour to the 4,380 hours I calculated.

 

[Schrode]

CatYaaak,

At the risk of being attacked by your ability to write many words . . .

I have read all of your posts, and all of those who you go back and forth with. I am an NJA Pilot, have been for 3 years, I am not an MBA, but I have been around a bit and understand management and a good business model. With that said, I have no idea WHY you are on a fractional message board or why you are so inflamed by what is said here. You seem like an intelligent guy, but seem to always attack the point-of-view of others for no real productive reason. What do you get out of these discussions? From what I can tell, this is some sort of "entertainment" for you - one that I just don't understand. The pilots here at NetJets are good people, looking to better the career they are in. Nothing more, nothing less. I am pleased for you that you have a great job. Hope it lasts for you. Why can you not wish this for us? Or would that not be as much fun?

 

[CatYaaak]

CatYaaak,
....The pilots here at NetJets are good people, looking to better the career they are in. Nothing more, nothing less. I am pleased for you that you have a great job. Hope it lasts for you. Why can you not wish this for us?

I do wish it for you, I always have.

But if I can see the serious flaws in arguments your leaders initiate when they (or many here) draw comparisons between other pilots groups ("less productive", "less safe"), then most assuredly, those you're actually fighting against see them too. Your wasting effort and fighting with one hand tied behind your back if you don't know as much about corporate aviation as they do. From what I've seen here, most don't. Many can't handle being challenged in any way, shape, or form, and see an opposing viewpoint on an issue, even if it's an attempt to point out flaws in premises, as a personal attack, a wish for failure, or trying to drive a divisive wedge.

My view is that expending energy taking that road would be better-channeled elsewhere, and wouldn't alienate so many people, if they weren't already alienated before, and there are plenty of those, probably more than you think. Many out where I sit hope that you not only shut the place down, but burn it beyond reconstruction.

I'm not one of them, but I do think any battle is better-fought if you use weapons that give you an advantage. In your case, cutting waste, finding the money internally, or convincing owners to pay more. Barring the celebrity-type, you won't convince your customers to pony up more $$$ for the same service by making bogus comparisons, especially corporations.

They might not stay with you anyway if your costs spike up and the threshold where you make economic sense to THEM lowers. An in-house flight department offers too many other inherent advantages over you if you strip yourselves of economic value from their perspective. As it is now, you only offer that economic advantage to a niche group of customers anyway, due to your business model's built-in inefficiences, compared to the alternatives that operate ever-more efficently.

Your customers have people trying to convince them to dump you and buy their own aircraft. They show them the numbers. Many don't renew their contracts for various reason, and $$$ is one of them. They know about "productivity" and "safety" of the alternative despite what I see now being claimed by your Leaders. Once again, if you try to "educate" them using bogus claims, you'll look foolish as a group. And they aren't going to get on a message board and tell you they do.

Strike talk, believe me, has already spurred many customers to look around more deeply, (let alone having an actual one). Many will take the talk in stride, BUT ONLY IF YOU HAVE LEGITIMATE ARGUMENTS, and not feed them nonsense born of emotion, even if emotion is legitimate. No business can survive without customers, and people shop around, and I don't mean other fractionals. I can't stress this enough, they aren't a captive audience, and having $$$ means being able to say "screw it", and go elsewhere. You can only push them money or hassle-wise up to that "screw-it" threshold. "Hassle" to them includes having to listen to B.S. Unfortunately though, going from what I see written here, or worse, what ASAP is releasing, by either ignorance or design there's too much B.S.

My whole point is that it's better to fight smart. Diluting smart arguments with "less-smart" ones weakens your overall position.

But in a strange twist of Karmic synergy given what's been discussed, I have to go be "productive" now. I know you'll all be saddened to hear it's for an extended trip to a place where they might discover the internet in about 100 years or so if they ever take their guns and beat them into computers.

So in the meantime, a sincere good luck to everyone. And if I don't see y'all later, then see you in he!!.

AMF

Yaaak

 

[T34Mentor]

As an MBA and a pilot, I suggest that NJA employees closely study Yaaks input. He is articulating well thought out arguments that you will face in your labor negotiations. He is doing you a favor by responding to your posts. If I were you, I'd keep playing with the spider without pulling the legs off; his web is your classroom.

 

[Grizz]

As a MBA and a NetJets pilot, I can tell you that we don't need your input. Thanks so much for stopping by though. Have fun troll.

 

[T34Mentor]

As a BRK Class A shareholder, my interest is strictly financial, nothing personal. I would hope you could sharpen your arguments by addressing issues raised by Yaak. Any misunderstanding between pilots and management could negatively impact my shareholder value.

Best of luck.

 

[Live4flyng]

As a BRK Class A shareholder, my interest is strictly financial, nothing personal.

Ok, we will keep that in mind. Thanks for your input.


Berkshire Hathaway Inc. Last 84000.10 Open 84600.00 Change -199.90 Previous Close 84200.00 % Change -0.24% Bid NA Volume 120 Ask NA Avg Daily Volume 500 Instit. Ownership 13.1% Day's High 84600.00 52 Week High 92900.00 Day's Low 84000.10 52 Week Low 81150.00

Dear Mr. Shareholder, can you tell us exactly what percentage NJA makes up of the BRK A and B shares? Your financial interest is at stake.

 

[jpilot]

I hate to even respond to Catyaak, but for the owner's sake here goes

<<I'm not one of them, but I do think any battle is better-fought if you use weapons that give you an advantage. In your case, cutting waste, finding the money internally, or convincing owners to pay more. Barring the celebrity-type, you won't convince your customers to pony up more $$$ for the same service by making bogus comparisons, especially corporations.>>


For one thing, NJA is not an airline, a corporate flight department, etc. We are fractional, in a class all by ourselves with 70% market share. We are not LOSING money although the company spin doctors have tried to inflate this idea. It is not up to NJA pilots to cut waste. We see the waste everyday and it lies in another department, scheduling, of which pilots have no control. Our customers have had their management fees increase over the past 3 and a half years of our contract negotiations and in essence, our salaries come from their management fees. The pilots of NJA have not seen an increase in our salaries as compared with the increase in management fees over the years.

The pilots of NJA know that an increase in management fees isn't necessary for the wages we are asking for. Our sister companies (EJM, NJE, NJI) pilots' make considerably more money than us (almost double). The profit/loss NJA is trying to push at the pilots includes the money sent to NJE to get the Europe operation up and running. An AIN article (in March, I believe) stipulates NJE's first 60 aircraft have been bought from NJA. EJM is fed our charter business and is a shell game in that their profits have increased 35% in 2004 (current press release), yet NJA is paying big money to it's sister company for that charter business. Heck, a price of a quart of oil purchased at EJM by a NJA aircraft is $105. Should be around $20, including labor, which the pilots pay at other FBO's. Why would our sister company charge so much more? To decrease profits in the shell game during union negotiations, of course.

In essence, the money is there. The pilots are tired of funding NJE, EJM and NJI with NJA funds and with our NJA pilots salaries. We just want what is due. A decent wage just like our sister companies but also NJA pilots want wages set only as a NJA pilot, not compared to other airlines, etc. We are in a class all by ourselves. Argue away Catyaak.

 

[T34Mentor]

You're welcome.

See pages 63 and 63 of '04 annual report.

 

[Live4flyng]

You're welcome.

See pages 63 and 63 of '04 annual report.

Ok, I'll ask the question in a different way since you are trying to fool everyone into thinking you are a concerned investor. What is the dollar value of all the assets owned by Netjets? Can you put that in percentage terms of your BRK A holdings?

If I owned BRK A stock, I would be most concerned with the insurance and reinsurance holdings, not hanging out on a fractional message board.

 

[holden1]

Ok, I'll ask the question in a different way since you are trying to fool everyone into thinking you are a concerned investor. What is the dollar value of all the assets owned by Netjets? Can you put that in percentage terms of your BRK A holdings?

If I owned BRK A stock, I would be most concerned with the insurance and reinsurance holdings, not hanging out on a fractional message board.

And if I owned a NetJets fraction I would want to know why the hell Marquis Card holders were helping overide the QS tails and ultimately drive down re-sale values.