Netjets Hawker 4000s - How Many Before End of 2008?

[On Your Six]

I thought I read that Netjets Europe was attempting to accelerate deliveries of various types of aircraft in 2008 including Hawker 4000s and Falcon 7Xs. I think I read that in AIN magazine (not the most reliable source though).

What has Raytheon had to say about the delivery delays? I still see ads for the 4000 in all of the magazines... It's confusing.

 

[mzaharis]

OK, I'll be the dork who says it - Raytheon doesn't care anymore! They sold Hawker-Beechcraft!

GS Capital partners (Goldman Sachs and Onex), Hawker-Beechcraft's new owners, however, might be rather concerned.

And, to add to the list of aircraft that Hawker-Beechcraft/Ex-Raytheon produced based on acquired designs, the T-6 Texan II is a derivative of the Swiss Pilatus PC-9.

It's interesting to read the post mortems on the Starship - I wonder if the 4000 will produce a similar story that won't come out until years from now. It is a slick plane, though, and if it lives up to its spec sheet, and is maintainable, and H-B can build it economically and with good quality, it should be a success.

 

[On Your Six]

OK, I'll be the dork who says it - Raytheon doesn't care anymore! They sold Hawker-Beechcraft!

GS Capital partners (Goldman Sachs and Onex), Hawker-Beechcraft's new owners, however, might be rather concerned.

And, to add to the list of aircraft that Hawker-Beechcraft/Ex-Raytheon produced based on acquired designs, the T-6 Texan II is a derivative of the Swiss Pilatus PC-9.

It's interesting to read the post mortems on the Starship - I wonder if the 4000 will produce a similar story that won't come out until years from now. It is a slick plane, though, and if it lives up to its spec sheet, and is maintainable, and H-B can build it economically and with good quality, it should be a success.

The fact that the demo aircraft is being flown to all of the airshows seems to indicate some interest on the manufacturer's part. Why even fly the demo around if people aren't serious? It's confusing because you would assume actions speak louder than words... Why take orders if you will ultimately have to give up the deposits? What is the manufacturer telling prospective customers (beyond Netjets)? I remember that Talon Air out of Farmingdale has been touting their upcoming Hawker 4000 available for charter soon...

Has the 4000 been certified yet? What are the potential holdups - any legit theories? It's too bad because it looks like a great airplane.

 

[jtf]

I went on 15QS over a year ago and talked to the test pilots. The airplane is a little smaller than the G-200 inside, but still very nice. The pilots told me it performs like a beast and ran off all kinds of impressive numbers, but then they said they were always having to ask eachother, "Why did it do that?" Evidently the avionics really have some gremlins and they have had to make changes to the design since the FAA changed certification requirements. My guess is that NJA and NJE don't take any until they can prove the gremlins have been removed.

 

[RNObased]

I am expecting zero.

I'm thinking that is solid bet.... Raytheon shouldn't be desiging anything from scratch.

Look at the 7X announced, designed, cert and delivered all in a fraction of the time of the 4000. I'm sure the list of biz jets that have been announced after the 4000/Horizon and are now flying with pax is long.

 

[mzaharis]

Has the 4000 been certified yet? What are the potential holdups - any legit theories? It's too bad because it looks like a great airplane.

Here's the latest from AIN, in an article reporting Hawker-Beechcraft deliveries for 2007:

Conspicuously absent from the deliveries is the super-midsize Hawker 4000, which was certified in November 2006 but had to meet additional certification requirements. The airplane is now in final testing. “We expect to announce confirmed [Hawker 4000] delivery dates in the coming weeks,” a spokesman told AIN.

http://www.ainonline.com/news/singl...awker-beechcraft/?no_cache=1&cHash=d1739f6b53

Here's another article from last September that discusses the 4000.

http://www.ainonline.com/news/singl...awker-beechcraft/?no_cache=1&cHash=fbcd30723f

 

[flywest]

I thought NJE just negotiated the accelerated delivery of 4 Hawker 4000's for this year. Maybe they are taking all of NJA's?

 

[CA1900]

I thought NJE just negotiated the accelerated delivery of 4 Hawker 4000's for this year. Maybe they are taking all of NJA's?

Hey, even if they doubled their delivery rate, two times zero is still zero.

 

[Guitar Guy]

The fact that the demo aircraft is being flown to all of the airshows seems to indicate some interest on the manufacturer's part. Why even fly the demo around if people aren't serious?

The interest from the manufacturer is to finally start generating some income from a plane that's swallowed up untold millions of dollars in development cost over the course of a decade. Flying N15QS around is a sales effort on their part.

Has the 4000 been certified yet? What are the potential holdups - any legit theories? It's too bad because it looks like a great airplane.

At one point, they had problems getting known-ice certification and some other certification required for 135 ops. Not being certified for 135 ops would be a show-stopper at NetJets, among others.

When I started at Boeing in 1989, I was there for the final certification of the 737-500. When I left just about 6 years later, I had been working on the 737-600/700/800. That's 6 years between generations. So I'd bet that Raytheon was (and now Hawker-Beechcraft is) sweating a lot over trying to sell a plane that probably should be seeing an improved model at this point in its design life.

 

[mzaharis]

One of the problems of Hawker 4000 certification is that it took more than 5 years from the start of the certification to the end. My understanding is that you're only held to the standards in place at the beginning of the certification - if regs change during certification, you're "grandfathered" in. During that time, the FARS for fuel systems were tightened (I forget exactly how, but maybe it was that an inerting system is required, or greater control of ignition source). Since the 4000 took more than 5 years, Raytheon had to, in effect, "restart" certification. They had already done the legwork, and could present their data, but they were liable for the latest FARs. I think they were able to "make a deal", where they received their type cert, but they were given a deadline to comply with the stiffer fuel system regs. That's been at least of the delay on getting to market.

This is off of memory and a quick google of AIN, so I apologize in advance if my accuracy isn't perfect.