NetJets common carrier

[Grizz]

I understood everything you posted AA717. I just don't agree with your assesment of the situation. I have no doubt that Roland advised you as you say. He advised you as to what your best course of action was given the facts of the situation. The facts were that either you guys accepted a buyout and the attendant loss of seniority protection or you watched as TWA closed its doors and you all marched en mass over to the unemployment office to fill out applications. You guys were in a horrible situation and Roland didn't cause it. Mismanagement at TWA put you where you were. AA buying you out was the only potential upside in that situation. Unfortunately, 9-11 and the downturn in the aviation industry happened and you guys took the brunt of it. The buyout at least bought you guys some time before you went on unemployment.

You want to blame all your troubles on the integration with AA. As far back as I can remember, TWA had been teetering on the financial edge. You made the decision to go to work for a company whose financial fortunes were questionable at best. What does that tell all of us about YOUR judgement?

 

[El Chupacabra]

easy Griz. You went to work at a place because someone told you a new Contract was almost done and going to make us all rich. And you believed them.

AA

Likely what would happen is a Fence would be contructed making all current G guys senior in type. As long as they choose to stay in the G- world, nothing would change... as far as a career in that type.

If they wanted to leave the G4 for another type, that would depend on the overall seniority they hold in the entire pilot group. I think likely DOH since its a Single carrier Suit claiming that both companies are really One company... if that suit were to succeed I do not see how integration could be otherwise.

What's in it for us?

I told you all before. The main thing is that we have been denied certain important benefits by management simply out of Spite. Fly from home is the biggest. Another is that we are prevented from flying any aircraft that is competing with the G4/G5 because of a noncompete agreeement with gulfstream. Ie no Falcon 900EX.

Do the math. 1000's of pilots at NJA have no chance of ever getting into a Gulfstream. That is not what this is about. There are just not enough and will never be enough of them to open many seats. Its about being unfairly treated and the big issue for me is Fly From Home because I commute 300 miles to my gateway from the 8th largest city in the US. costing me time and thousands of $$$ for no other reason than management says Why should we just give you that when we can use it as a bargaining chip in negotiations.

 

[flyfish]

They are an autonomous company with their own President, executive staff, maintenance and dispatch/scheduling operations.

GV





~

True, but the big problem is...they're carrying our passengers. And don't forget this "autonomous company" is only a few months old. Before that, we were all one. Doing the same job, for less money. And as, by far, the most profitable division of Netjets. We'd like to change that.

 

[Grizz]

easy Griz. You went to work at a place because someone told you a new Contract was almost done and going to make us all rich. And you believed them.

I believed that a new contract was just around the corner based on what I was told by line Captains conducting the interview and non-pilots involved in the hiring process. I never believed that I was going to get rich, just thought this was going to turn into a career rather than a time building slot. Was I naive? Certainly. The difference is that with effort on our part, we can turn this into a career and that's what I've strived to do since coming here. If it doesn't work out, I will move on because I'm smart enough not to stay with a sinking ship. I'll know which direction I'm going later this year.

 

[GVFlyer]

True, but the big problem is...they're carrying our passengers. And don't forget this "autonomous company" is only a few months old. Before that, we were all one. Doing the same job, for less money. And as, by far, the most profitable division of Netjets. We'd like to change that.

Prior to moving to the larger facility in Okatie, South Carolina in 2003, EJI/NJI Headquarters was in Bluffton, SC at the intersection of Highway 278 and Moss Creek Drive where they had been located since 1996.

They did consolidate Gulfstream scheduling in their larger facility. Understandably so, when I was flying NJI aircraft, the Columbus scheduling cell was the weak link in the chain.

I'm not sure I follow your logic about NJI carrying your passengers - so do your vendors, but I don't believe you've invited them into your union.

I have no problem with you getting as much money as the market will bear, however, I think it is unrealistic to expect that your compensation will come up to the level of Gulfstream, Global and Boeing pilots. Even at NJA, the Boeing guys have a separate contract (and have formed a new company whatever that's about). It's a pay for weight world out there. The reason your current contract is seniority based is because you had only one type of aircraft at the time it was written.

GV

 

[transpac]

It's a pay for weight world out there. The reason your current contract is seniority based is because you had only one type of aircraft at the time it was written.

GV

Tell this to the folks at UPS.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Likely what would happen is a Fence would be contructed making all current G guys senior in type. As long as they choose to stay in the G- world, nothing would change... as far as a career in that type.

If they wanted to leave the G4 for another type, that would depend on the overall seniority they hold in the entire pilot group. I think likely DOH since its a Single carrier Suit claiming that both companies are really One company... if that suit were to succeed I do not see how integration could be otherwise.

Do the math. 1000's of pilots at NJA have no chance of ever getting into a Gulfstream.

I have a question about this - since the Gulfstream guys would have a fence essentially locking us out of their aircraft, why would they then get whatever their seniority could hold (most likely based on DOH) on ours? So an NJI guy with the same seniority as mine could bid for the same capt slots I do on the NJA side, yet I am locked out of bidding for the Gulfstream capt slots that may open up on his side. This does not sound like a good idea to me.

If the integration happens as you say, what is the difference for us? Just because the lists are integrated doesn't mean we automatically get their work rules or pay. They may end up stuck with ours. I don't see an upside to this for NJA pilots.

 

[GEXDriver]

Tell this to the folks at UPS.

Gosh, that changes everything! I guess everybody else will be following suit now. Maybe everyone will start randomly searching the pilots AFTER a flight like UPS does, too.

 

[transpac]

Gosh, that changes everything! I guess everybody else will be following suit now. Maybe everyone will start randomly searching the pilots AFTER a flight like UPS does, too.

Can't help but chuckle when I read about light twin pilots bragging about the weight of the airplanes they fly. Kind of like a C-172 pilot lording over his brethern in C-150s. A Gulfstream is a fine airplane, but it's a long way from being a heavy.

 

[flyfish]

I'm not sure I follow your logic about NJI carrying your passengers - so do your vendors, but I don't believe you've invited them into your union.


GV

NJI sells fractional shares under the umbrella of Netjets. The vendors we use do not.

 

[semperfido]

I have a question about this - since the Gulfstream guys would have a fence essentially locking us out of their aircraft, why would they then get whatever their seniority could hold (most likely based on DOH) on ours? So an NJI guy with the same seniority as mine could bid for the same capt slots I do on the NJA side, yet I am locked out of bidding for the Gulfstream capt slots that may open up on his side. This does not sound like a good idea to me.

If the integration happens as you say, what is the difference for us? Just because the lists are integrated doesn't mean we automatically get their work rules or pay. They may end up stuck with ours. I don't see an upside to this for NJA pilots.

you don't have to worry...a gulfstream FO would not want to go to your side to be captain..i think in all fairness you should be able to apply and interview if you want to switch teams and then start at the bottom of their list and visa versa. the teams should be kept separate.

 

[El Chupacabra]

I have a question about this - since the Gulfstream guys would have a fence essentially locking us out of their aircraft, why would they then get whatever their seniority could hold (most likely based on DOH) on ours? So an NJI guy with the same seniority as mine could bid for the same capt slots I do on the NJA side, yet I am locked out of bidding for the Gulfstream capt slots that may open up on his side. This does not sound like a good idea to me.

If the integration happens as you say, what is the difference for us? Just because the lists are integrated doesn't mean we automatically get their work rules or pay. They may end up stuck with ours. I don't see an upside to this for NJA pilots.

Semper fido got it right. If a G man come over to our side... then there would be a seat open on the G side... for me.... We would get the work rules... no fence on rules, just on type ratings.

Face it ... you cant have a single carrier suit claiming its one company then stick the folks who have been in the one company at the bottom of the list.

 

[GVFlyer]

NJI sells fractional shares under the umbrella of Netjets. The vendors we use do not.

Gulfstream sells NJI fractional shares under the Gulfstream Shares program, are you coming after Gulfstream Flight Operations next?

GV

 

[Fozzy]

"I can tell you that the pilots at NJI don't want anything to do with the union company and are frankly amazed at NJA's continuing interest in them. They are an autonomous company with their own President, executive staff, maintenance and dispatch/scheduling operations. "

GV,

We are not interested in your pilots. It is the airplanes we are interested in.
As for the pilots, I don't care. That is what fences are for.

And as far as an "autonomous company". HA. You reek of a company mole and/or kool-aid drinker. Not very "autonomous' when your owners are flying NJA airplanes (and vise versa). This fight is coming, not right away, but it is coming!

 

[semperfido]

"I can tell you that the pilots at NJI don't want anything to do with the union company and are frankly amazed at NJA's continuing interest in them. They are an autonomous company with their own President, executive staff, maintenance and dispatch/scheduling operations. "

GV,

We are not interested in your pilots. It is the airplanes we are interested in.
As for the pilots, I don't care. That is what fences are for.

And as far as an "autonomous company". HA. You reek of a company mole and/or kool-aid drinker. Not very "autonomous' when your owners are flying NJA airplanes (and vise versa). This fight is coming, not right away, but it is coming!

Fozzy-- crawl back into your hole

 

[Fozzy]

Did I strike a nerve?

Good.

 

[GVFlyer]

We are not interested in your pilots. It is the airplanes we are interested in.
As for the pilots, I don't care. That is what fences are for.

And as far as an "autonomous company". HA. You reek of a company mole and/or kool-aid drinker. Not very "autonomous' when your owners are flying NJA airplanes (and vise versa). This fight is coming, not right away, but it is coming!

If you're going to post in this thread, perhaps you should read it first.

"I do not now nor have I ever belonged to NJI", said GVFlyer in his best McCarthy era Senate Hearing voice.

I have friends there, know their history because it happened around me and at one time flew with them when my company owned two Gulfstream Shares. I was just trying to provide some background information here. Talk about shooting the messenger!

But, riddle me this, Fozzy, how are you going to force the pilots of a company chartered in South Carolina, a Right to Work state, into a union?



http://www.nrtwc.org/rtw_law.php3?state=sc


GV

 

[wolfpackpilot]

I find it strangely odd you never see the NJI pilots on here commenting about this obviously one-sided war. I think its appropriate to reiterate what one NJA pilot has said, “we’re not interested in the pilots, just the planes”.

Although I’m not weighing in on either side, I have to say those types of comments aren’t going to bode well for your group. Judges and Jurors have an uncanny ability to discern personal desires over legal rights.

 

[semperfido]

Did I strike a nerve?

Good.

Not really because I am not a NJI pilot. I just find your headstrong attitude a little bit annoying. I doubt my BP went up at all.

 

[Fozzy]

GV. You are right I withdraw my last part of my post.

I don't see what S.C. has to do with anything. Right to work or whatever. Not to familiar and don't much care. So operations is there. NJA has ops in Ohio. HQ in NJ. Offices all over. And we are all owned by some rich guy that is based in OMAHA! We will let all the legal minds sort that out.

Fido. It is not headstrong. Just the facts. It is all about the planes and who does the flying. No attitude, just telling it the way it is. This is business, not personal.

If we bring all the flying, NJA and NJI under one list, the pilots will be coming with and still flying the Gwiz's. That is my opinion, but I am pretty sure that is the way it would fall. Fences to keep most happy. It may sound harsh, but it is not as bad as it sounds. Guess some things are lost in the text.



Wolf. What does a jury have to do with anything here??? And legal rights, well I think we have a fighting chance at this if we pursue it.

As far as desire goes. The only desire I have is not having management playing us against each other. Beating us over the head with the chosen one's.



What do we gain from all of this? Well that is the good part.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Semper fido got it right. If a G man come over to our side... then there would be a seat open on the G side... for me....

Let's say this integration came to pass. And let's say that an NJIer with a DOH one day before mine bids and is awarded an open Capt slot on the NJA side, leaving me out. This opens an SIC slot on the NJI side. However, because of the fence described earlier, I am unable to bid for that slot, unless I go to the bottom of the G-list, right? So essentially all NJI guys will have a form of super-seniority over NJAers, in that they keep their seniority on the Gulfstream, yet get DOH on any of our aircraft. Am I understanding this correctly?

We would get the work rules... no fence on rules, just on type ratings.

The other question is how will the single-carrier petition result in the NJI workrules and pay taking precedence over our negotiated contract?

 

[Fozzy]

This is all guess work. My impression of fences is that it will allow pilots to stay in a seat once merged even if they would not normally be able to hold that position. So for example, (and this should get some pissed, but makes my point) All of NJI gets stapled or FLOPS or whoever. Stapled. But they would have a fence to allow them to hold that seat (helps company in the training area and keeps pilots happy). You in seniority would not loose in rank, but they would keep their seat.
That is my guess.

And pay, that must be negotiated.


GV I took a look at that right to work law. What would keep NJ, if they lost a single carrier suit, from folding the SC ops because they are not needed and just moving the G's to Ohio? Forget about the union end of this. They are forced to make them part of NJA. Planes get moved to another "company" and now that SC law is worthless. Just throwing that out there.

 

[Publishers]

You all seem to be ignoring Gulfstreams role in this.

Secondly, I beg to differ that you have any passengers. The whole concept is that you are providing a service to owners. The owners hire Netjets or NJI and that is not the same thing as an airline so they sure are not your passengers at all. You have a glorified airplane brokerage service and management service. I think the court would say that you are not even an air carrier except in the FAA world of commercial aviation.

You also know that an individual cannot be forced to join a union according to law. If you have another company where the employees do not want to be in a union, you will have a problem convincing a court to force single carrier. It is one thing when a company does not want that to happen, another when the employees do not want it to happen.

The Pan Am / Boston etc battle that just went on may serve as an example and they were companies with the same owners.

This is where I think you go astray on the single carrier thing. The court is going to look to what you do and it is not in their perception an air carrier like other cases. You serve at the contracted pleasure of some owners. If Netjets owned the aircraft and you were providing strictly 135 open charter to the world, maybe different but I do not think this single carrier will fly.

 

[Majik]

Well thank you Perry Mason, but I think we'll let another attorney provide our legal advise.

So you're saying, while we are in negotiations, we should not pursue the single carrier issue if it might help pursuade Santulli to give us a better deal? Sounds like you're just against the idea of us getting a better deal at all. I think we should consider using every tool in the drawer to get the job done and that's what we'll do, whether you APPROVE or not. Enjoy the view from the sidelines.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Secondly, I beg to differ that you have any passengers. The whole concept is that you are providing a service to owners. The owners hire Netjets or NJI and that is not the same thing as an airline so they sure are not your passengers at all. You have a glorified airplane brokerage service and management service. I think the court would say that you are not even an air carrier except in the FAA world of commercial aviation.

So if that is the case, why are we subject to the RLA?

 

[CatYaaak]

So if that is the case, why are we subject to the RLA?

What does labor law or the mere existence of a labor agreement between you and your employer NJA have to do with whether an operation meets the standard of being an "air carrier" with regards to who the passengers are, and how they access the air services? Where's the common carriage involved when your customers are technically considered to be private owners? The whole point of setting up the fractional scheme the way it was, was to exist outside the common carriage world.

Outside the womb of NJA, interchange agreements exist between private owners/companies to ride on each other's aircraft and maintain Private, non-common carrier status, thus remain Part 91 ops. The pilots fly "other" people all the time. That's all your "owners" are doing, and it's nothing special or new except for the way it was financed, structured, and sold to a niche market of medium-use customers.

You're trying to apply airline-world "it's our flying, they're our passengers" answers to somewhere it doesn't. Owners have an element of operational control, and aren't just stranger pax that walk up and buy a ticket, also why their names are legally attached to certain, specific aircraft in your fleets.

The ability for an owner of a Hawker share (who's name is attatched to a specific Hawker serial number) to ride on an Ultra, or for that matter, another Hawker within NJA, and remain Part 91 has nothing to do with a labor agreement or being an "air carrier". It's about interchange agreements built into the fractional contract between private owners that you just happen to drive around. Same thing if you fly a Gstream owner from NJI or vice-versa.

If you guys are spending union dues money on lawyers who are blowing sunshine up your bums on this, I hope you fire them quickly when the time comes. Fractionals are certainly a viable idea and have broken some new ground, but you're not going to re-define what makes something a "carrier", especially after all the lobbying and reg/law-parsing that was undertaken to deem you presicely the opposite.

 

[Grizz]

I'll try to explain this and I'll use small words so Publishers and CatYaaak can follow along. We were recognized as a collective bargaining unit under the Railway Labor Act. Because we still do a significant portion of our flights under Part 135 with non-owners onboard (Marquis Cards), that is d@mned unlikely to change.

We would love nothing more than to be moved under the National Labor Relations Act because it would give us tons more leverage. NetJets will never allow that because they like us just where we are. Because they want us under the RLA, it has some provisions they can't ignore such as the single carrier provision.

If you were NetJets management, what would you rather have? A union that can file to have your non-union group get absorbed into the union side OR a union that can go on strike at the end of a contract? It's a simple equation in their mind and one that we're stuck with. That being said, get ready for the single carrier lawsuit. It's one of the few weapons that the RLA leaves us and we'd be foolish not to use it.

I'm sure we're going to hear from the self-styled experts on labor law such as Publishers and CatYaaak, but I'll defer to the guys that really are experts. Not a couple of yahoos on a message board that are impressed with their own delusions of grandeur.

 

[CatYaaak]

I'll try to explain this and I'll use small words so Publishers and CatYaaak can follow along. We were recognized as a collective bargaining unit under the Railway Labor Act. Because we still do a significant portion of our flights under Part 135 with non-owners onboard (Marquis Cards), that is d@mned unlikely to change.

We would love nothing more than to be moved under the National Labor Relations Act because it would give us tons more leverage. NetJets will never allow that because they like us just where we are. Because they want us under the RLA, it has some provisions they can't ignore such as the single carrier provision.

If you were NetJets management, what would you rather have? A union that can file to have your non-union group get absorbed into the union side OR a union that can go on strike at the end of a contract? It's a simple equation in their mind and one that we're stuck with. That being said, get ready for the single carrier lawsuit. It's one of the few weapons that the RLA leaves us and we'd be foolish not to use it.

I'm sure we're going to hear from the self-styled experts on labor law such as Publishers and CatYaaak, but I'll defer to the guys that really are experts. Not a couple of yahoos on a message board that are impressed with their own delusions of grandeur.

If I were NetJets management, I'd love for you to keep doing what you're doing...spinning your wheels and wasting your money on this non-issue. If you lose, you lose. If you win, it doesn't do a thing to improve your own condition, namely pay. If they offer up NJI as a sacraficial lamb, then it's seen as a concession on their part and they'll want something in return, which again does nothing to improve your condition.

But hey, if it makes you feel better or convinces the rank and file you're "doing something" up there steering the raft.....well, it's their money so whatever.

Thank you for the education on civlian aviation Grizz. Labor lawyers are of course the apex of aviation knowledge, should be deferred to, and no way would they ever tell their clients such as yourself exactly what they want to hear.

 

[Ultra Grump]

CatYaaak - Are you always a confrontational ass?

What does labor law or the mere existence of a labor agreement between you and your employer NJA have to do with whether an operation meets the standard of being an "air carrier" with regards to who the passengers are, and how they access the air services? Where's the common carriage involved when your customers are technically considered to be private owners? The whole point of setting up the fractional scheme the way it was, was to exist outside the common carriage world.
...
You're trying to apply airline-world "it's our flying, they're our passengers" answers to somewhere it doesn't.

Thanks for the tirade. I'll ask again: so if that is the case, why are we subject to the RLA?

 

[Publishers]

You are subject to the RLA beause you are technically in the air trasportation world of DOT and FAA. That should not comfort you in the single carrier status issue.

Introduction

Whether they know it or not, employees in a unionized workplace have a choice to make: they can join and support the labor union that represents their bargaining unit, or they can choose to refrain from joining and supporting the union.(2) In a diverse society such as ours, it is hardly surprising that individual employees' opinions frequently differ from those of the labor union officials charged with representing their interests, and that many employees will not want to join the union or support it.