NetJets common carrier

[Grizz]

Maybe you guys took a job at a non-union shop - from what I've read here you're the only union company at NetJets.

The mechanics and flight attendents are union also. 2000 NJA pilots versus less than 300 NJI. Also, NJI was formed after there was union on property. I'm pretty sure we're a union shop. Might want to do a bit more reading before you spout off again popeye...it'll make you look a tad bit less foolish.

 

[Grizz]

Well Mudd, we're really not too concerned about what he wants or doesn't want. We've got 2000 pilots in our union to protect. Those are the guys we're concerned about making happy.

 

[Majik]

Seems to me that the NJI guys don't want anything to do with your union or it's "protection" (sounds like something you'd buy from the Mob so your business doesn't accidently burn down).

They probably don't. Nobody likes change, regardless of the potential outcome. The courts may rule that they don't have a choice.

When I was a pilot in the military the best jobs within a unit were not always given out based soley on merit. Most of them were given out to the politicians and butt-kissers. I wanted to get the good assignments so I became a dam n good politician and butt-kisser. I didn't like it but it was a necessary evil if I didn't want to be relegated to supply or some other undesirable position.

You've either learned to deal with the taste of your superior officers' buttocks or your extra duties include the supply room or something similar. That may be acceptable to you but I prefer a system that exhibits a better system of fairness without having to feel like you are a sell-out. Once you leave the military and are able to experience the advantages of a seniority based system, I think you would probably agree with me. Not something you pay so your business doesn't burn down, but something you pay dues for so that you don't have to go home every day with ass-breath. Until then, stay safe and thanks for your service.

 

[El Chupacabra]

Majik,

It never hurt if your wife socializes with the XOs wife. Or if your Golf game is good enough to get the attention of the CG. Of course marrying the Group Commander's daughter is always a career enhancing move. You wouldn't believe the orders I saw someone get after pulling that off. Did I mention she was ugly?

 

[Majik]

I had taken my CO hunting with my Dad. A pheasant rose up in front of my Dad, he shot and the bird started to fall. My CO shot a split second after my Dad. It was blatantly obvious that my father shot the bird. Both my Dad and I exchanged looks but remained silent when my CO suddenly yelled, "Dang but I just made a great shot, huh?" My Dad was prior military, knew how the game was played and wanted his son to stay out of the supply room too.

Just one of hundreds of examples. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed my time in Uncle Sam's Army. I was able to discover early the price I had to pay to play the game. That's not one of the parts I miss.

 

[Grizz]

Majik,

I never figured that kinda crap out. Must have been the reason I retired as a Captain. Then again, it could have been all those years I had as a enlisted guy. There were a lot of times that being a mustang was a good thing.

I remember my last OER prior to turning in my retirement paperwork. My rater was pissed off because I was retiring and not taking a staff tour and shooting for Major. He threatened to mark me down on the OER. I looked at him and told him point blank that the only way he could hurt me with that OER was to roll it up real tight and poke me in the eye with it. I thought the dude had no sense of humor but he actually laughed when I said that.

One of the things I really miss about the military was that generally you knew the rules and everyone typically followed them. I guess I was naive enough to assume that NetJets would follow the same example being born of a heavy military background. Boy was I ever mistaken. Now, I'm just glad we have a union so we can force the issue if need be.

 

[SeaSpray]

They probably don't. Nobody likes change, regardless of the potential outcome. The courts may rule that they don't have a choice.

When I was a pilot in the military the best jobs within a unit were not always given out based soley on merit. Most of them were given out to the politicians and butt-kissers. I wanted to get the good assignments so I became a dam n good politician and butt-kisser. I didn't like it but it was a necessary evil if I didn't want to be relegated to supply or some other undesirable position.

You've either learned to deal with the taste of your superior officers' buttocks or your extra duties include the supply room or something similar. That may be acceptable to you but I prefer a system that exhibits a better system of fairness without having to feel like you are a sell-out. Once you leave the military and are able to experience the advantages of a seniority based system, I think you would probably agree with me. Not something you pay so your business doesn't burn down, but something you pay dues for so that you don't have to go home every day with ass-breath. Until then, stay safe and thanks for your service.

Too bad you had such a sorry experience in the military, chief. I don't think it's typical though and it sure doesn't reflect what I've seen in the service. I've seen leadership, ability, bravery and hard work rewarded with command, cockpits, below-the-zone promotions, awards, assignments and schools.

I don't see how a system based on seniority rather than ability can be better than one that recognizes it when you're busting your ass! But I don't plan on getting out until after I see the next list. So, I won't be looking for a job for a while and everything can change by then - just like it did for the majors.

 

[Majik]

I know exactly what you mean Grizz. I have plenty of friends that did not know how or refused to play the games. It was always nice to have friends like that in supply so I could use that friendship to score some extra stuff when I needed it. I became good at playing the game. It was sad to see them holed up in their support jobs, wishing they were able to fly the line. Some even looked down on me for being such a butt-kisser but hey, thems wuz the rules and if you wanted to be on the starting team, and I did, then that's what you had to do.

Glad I don't have to work under the so-called "merit system" anymore. I had no golf game and my lips were starting to lose their pucker. Plus, my breath was starting to build up an immunity to Industrial Strength Listerine.

 

[El Chupacabra]

I know some don't agree with me but I would be willing to trade for FFH and Return of All Hostages.

 

[Majik]

Too bad you had such a sorry experience in the military, chief. I don't think it's typical though and it sure doesn't reflect what I've seen in the service. I've seen leadership, ability, bravery and hard work rewarded with command, cockpits, below-the-zone promotions, awards, assignments and schools.

I don't see how a system based on seniority rather than ability can be better than one that recognizes it when you're busting your ass! But I don't plan on getting out until after I see the next list. So, I won't be looking for a job for a while and everything can change by then - just like it did for the majors.

Wrong! I had a great experience in the military. If I could have remained in the cockpit I would have chosen to stay longer.

Glad to hear that all commands and choice assignments in your military are consistently being awarded soley on merit. I got out in 92 and, for the most part, that wasn't how things were done in my units. Politics, friendships and other things seemed to play a big part in deciding who got what, and the meritorious and deserving were not always the winners.

Let me give you an example. Let's say one person in Columbus decides who gets the next upgrade in the BBJ. He has to chose from 2000 pilots that live in 25 cities and may only get to Columbus once a year. Think he knows all of these pilots by name? Think he knows who's been naughty or nice? No, you are expecting the impossible from that individual. He's going to go with the guy that's made his presence known and touts his contributions (real or exaggerated) to the big decision maker. The guy that "plays the game" and not the "most deserving" will get the prize.

Like I said, wait til you are able to experience something this size before you solidify your judgement. Imagine a Commander with 2000 pilots, some of which he will never meet, trying to decide which ones get selected for promotion and which ones will be passed over.

Ask yourself why airlines use a seniority based system.

 

[Hawk Driver]

I don't see how a system based on seniority rather than ability can be better than one that recognizes it when you're busting your ass!

This becomes too subjective and the only way to move up is exactly what Majik and Grizz stated. Unfortunately, the only way for that to happen in our company is if you were to move to CMH, otherwise you are an unknown. Just ask the guys at FLOPS about their upgrade experiences. I had friends that worked for Raytheon before the merger and they said it was truly a wreck getting an upgrade. At least with a seniority based system, everyone has a chance to upgrade. If that person is deemed that they don't have any leadership abilities or can't fly the plane, they don't get the promotion.

Thanks for your service and sacrifice,

HD

 

[Semore Butts]

Sea Spray Great Comments

First of all, I'm deployed too.

I find it humorous to hear some military guy talking a bunch of sh*t to a bunch of former military guys that are now flying civilian.

Lets start with the basics Sea Spray,

This is sh*t, Ok, this is shinola,

Ok guys, the education of Sea Spray has begun.

Sea Spray, your attitude is amuzing, but not funny. Where do get off coming here and bad mouthing us about trying to make our lives better?

I don't give a sh*t how high speed you think you are in the military. When you get to this side (If you can keep your attitude hidden during the interview), you will be a brand new First Officer.

You may very likely be flying with a younger Captain that has more time then you do. He doesn't give a hoot about your years in the military, all he remembers is the risking his life as a CFI or a freight dog.

So because you are who you are you should be able to step to the head of the line? Well someone of your qualification should go right into the left seat of am American 777.

Oh wait their union wont allow you to do that? Oh, neither will Delta's, United's, Southwest, Continental.

Gee, there must be a reason all these companies with so many pilots have unions? Umm?

You basically don't know what the hell you are talking about, so why don't try to listen, maybe you will learn something.

Jerk..

 

[AA717driver]

I just got off the phone with one of our MEC members and have some more information on this topic. The lawyer leading the charge on this is Roland Wilder. He's one of the top scope attorneys in the nation and has been working Teamster scope issues for just about forever. I met the man at the IAD roadshow and I can tell you he's the real deal. Anyway, his recommendation is that we've got one of the strongest cases for single carrier status he's ever seen and that we'd be foolish not to pursue it. The airline division agrees and has approved the lawsuit to go forward. I guess they know something that all the naysayers on the board here don't.

HAAAAAAA!!! Whoa! That's a good one, Griz. Yeah Roland's gonna take good care of you. Just like he did for me. Yeah, that's right, Roland was the attorney for the TWA MEC when AA bought us. ("If you don't sign this integration document you will be left dancing naked in the street." Yes, Roland, we're naked because you advised us to waive our SCOPE clause.)

If you take his advice you'll end up like me--no SCOPE, no seniority and no job. All he's trying to do is to make up for the lost income from us withholding our payment until the DFR lawsuit against ALPA is settled. Oh, yeah, did I mention he's a big part of WHY we have a DFR lawsuit against ALPA?

Good luck with the seat grab thing.TC

 

[Diesel]

If you guys hadn't been bought out by AA you would have been out on the street regardless. At least you have a possibility of going back to AA.

 

[Grizz]

Most of the TWA guys fail to understand that Deisel. Their company was tanked. They were facing unemployment. The fact that AA bought the burning wreckage of an airline called TWA only gave them a temporary reprieve. I feel for them but the acquired company's pilots almost always take it in the shorts..that's a fact of aviaition life. AA717 is still bitter about his treatment and I understand it. His bitterness doesn't change for one second my thoughts as to what is in the best interest of our pilot group.

 

[SkyGirl]

First of all, I'm deployed too.

I find it humorous to hear some military guy talking a bunch of sh*t to a bunch of former military guys that are now flying civilian.

Lets start with the basics Sea Spray,

This is sh*t, Ok, this is shinola,

Ok guys, the education of Sea Spray has begun.

Sea Spray, your attitude is amuzing, but not funny. Where do get off coming here and bad mouthing us about trying to make our lives better?

I don't give a sh*t how high speed you think you are in the military. When you get to this side (If you can keep your attitude hidden during the interview), you will be a brand new First Officer.

You may very likely be flying with a younger Captain that has more time then you do. He doesn't give a hoot about your years in the military, all he remembers is the risking his life as a CFI or a freight dog.

So because you are who you are you should be able to step to the head of the line? Well someone of your qualification should go right into the left seat of am American 777.

Oh wait their union wont allow you to do that? Oh, neither will Delta's, United's, Southwest, Continental.

Gee, there must be a reason all these companies with so many pilots have unions? Umm?

You basically don't know what the hell you are talking about, so why don't try to listen, maybe you will learn something.

Jerk..

Not to be critical here, but perhaps you should actually read someone's post before you reply to it.

It's pretty clear that SeaSpray said nothing about his own abilities nor was he against your group trying to better their lot. His beef was with what he perceived to be your aggressively seeking to destroy the lives of another group of pilots in order to better your own position.

Thanks for your service to our country.

_SkyGirl_

 

[El Chupacabra]

Once again, another person who never worked as a pilot offering an unwanted and unasked for opinion.

Hey don't think we don't appreciate it though....

 

[SkyGirl]

Once again, another person who never worked as a pilot offering an unwanted and unasked for opinion.

Hey don't think we don't appreciate it though....

Not an opinion, just an observable fact. Read SeaSpray's post. I just thought Semore was a little harsh with SeaSpray for something he didn't say.

_SkyGirl_

 

[El Chupacabra]

I have read the post. SeaHorse thinks he should get a seat in a G-IV because he is more qualified than the 2000 pilots already here. Thats why he does not want us to blow it for him by bringing those ships under the Union canopy. Then he'd have to wait in line.

Pretends he cares about the guys already in Gulfstreams... He is just out for himself. He doesn't care about me... I been here 7 years and I think a G-IV would look very good on me.

In his ignorance of the circumstances he believes the single carrier suit is about grabbing seats in the Gulfstreams. It is not. It is about the fact that 5 years ago this union worked out an agreement with Management on Home Based Airports. An arrangement where pilots could report to work at the nearest airport to their home that had sufficient airline service. An arrangement that the Gulfstream side enjoyed then and still does now.

At the 11th hour management renegs because they reason out loud... We are about to enter contract negotiations. Why should we give you something we can use as a bargaining chip? Management continues to resist Home based airports in current negotiations.

Well our response is only now surfacing. Home base airports for EVERYBODY or NOBODY. That is what single carrier is about.

 

[Semore Butts]

Skygirl, I'm sorry if you feel I was to harsh, my "what a jerk" alarm went off and I reacted.

Seaspray makes it sound like all the NJI guys are more qualified then the rest of us. I don't buy that for a minute.

He has no idea what he is talking about.

Do you know how NJI came to be?

We are a bunch of pricks? (and I'm harsh, remember?)

He doesn't know us, or what we have been through. He doesn'y even have a dog in this fight, yet he is gonna judge us?

We are fighting a cause that will improve the industry as a whole. We are the ones enduring the low pay, and now the mental warfare the company is dishing out.

If it comes to it we will probably strike, if we are successful, the majority will profit from it. If we lose it will lower the bar for everyone. We are the ones puttng it on the line while he sits and judges. No doubt he will be anxiously watching for the outcome to plan his future moves.

You wanna know what harsh is? I live about 100 yards from one of the major MEDEVAC pads here in Iraq.

Have a nice day.

 

[da90drivr]

I don't see how you could lower the bar, it seems to be resting comfortably on the ground now.
You seem to forget you took a job that paid lower than "industry standard" pay.
As for helping the industry as a whole - you need to look no further than yourselves for the reason the industry is in it's current state.
How many "good" companies went fractional because it was "cheaper"?
Why was it cheaper, professional pilots willing to work for peanuts. Yes I forgot you were also willing to fight for your cause.
Go ahead and strike - maybe one less fractional operator may be a good thing.

Skygirl, I'm sorry if you feel I was to harsh, my "what a jerk" alarm went off and I reacted.

Seaspray makes it sound like all the NJI guys are more qualified then the rest of us. I don't buy that for a minute.

He has no idea what he is talking about.

Do you know how NJI came to be?

We are a bunch of pricks? (and I'm harsh, remember?)

He doesn't know us, or what we have been through. He doesn'y even have a dog in this fight, yet he is gonna judge us?

We are fighting a cause that will improve the industry as a whole. We are the ones enduring the low pay, and now the mental warfare the company is dishing out.

If it comes to it we will probably strike, if we are successful, the majority will profit from it. If we lose it will lower the bar for everyone. We are the ones puttng it on the line while he sits and judges. No doubt he will be anxiously watching for the outcome to plan his future moves.

You wanna know what harsh is? I live about 100 yards from one of the major MEDEVAC pads here in Iraq.

Have a nice day.

 

[650 driver]

As long as pilots accept 27-28k to start the problem will remain. Even Citation Shares start is below NBAA averages.
I hope the fractionals keep screwing up like they are doing now. It will mean more new start up flight deptartments for the real corporate pilots in the profession.

650

 

[Col. Angus]

Seniority integration and job protection will be fair.

Fellow Crewmembers,



I can tell you with absolute confidence and without emotion that regardless of any one person's opinion or feelings, that in the event of a successful single carrier petition and/or buy-out/merger that the career expectations of any NJI, EJM, FO, Flex, or other non-union pilot group will be preserved.



Allow me to explain:



1. The procedures for such marriages are ultimately adjudicated for the benefit of all parties, not just one party.



2. The elected leadership at ASAP and elsewhere is interested in building unity, solidarity, and self-confidence for the purpose of advancing the common goals of all fractional pilots.



3. While the pilots at NJA will not sacrifice job security or significant seniority rights, there will be a fair system of integration designed to preserve the career expectations of any subordinate pilot group while preserving the seniority rights of the group forcing the integration.



4. Fine details will not be easily solved by organizing unions at the non-union carriers as disputes over seniority rights and longevity ultimately wind up in arbitration and/or civil litigation. Generally and historically speaking, the better organized and better funded group prevails.



5. The likelihood of any subordinate group being subject to furlough is very low in the foreseeable future. Possible, yes, but low. There is still time to organize if you disagree.



Allow me to apologize to any group that feels threatened. These efforts are honestly designed to improve the lives of fractional pilots everywhere. Try and remember this: These aren’t your Daddy's Teamsters.



Respectfully,



Col. Angus

 

[Publishers]

It will be interesting to see how all this works out seeing what we have here is two management companies, one union and one not, with the one not being adament about not joining, being looked at as one carrier. In short, we have a management company seeking to utilize rules designed for something else altogether.

 

[TCA]

Confused

Confused

Gee Publishers...
Could you help some with that one? I seem to be missing something!!

Thanks

"Still Climbing"
TCA

 

[El Chupacabra]

He has no idea what he is talking about.... What he says sounds a lot like Abbot and Costello's WHO's on First?

Whats the name of the guy on first base?

Who.

The guy on first base?

Who!

Thats what I've been asking you. Who is on first base?

Exactly!

 

[FLYLOW22]

Publisher is rated SMELI... I think that is so stinky.

 

[GVFlyer]

...Seaspray makes it sound like all the NJI guys are more qualified then the rest of us. I don't buy that for a minute.

Do you know how NJI came to be? ...

Have a nice day.

I know the answer to that question. The time is January 1995. NJA (EJA at that time) was already known for it's low pay and history of hiring turbo-prop regional pilots into jets. These pilots were willing to accept the work rules, duty periods, gateways and poor compensation their union had negotiated for them in return for jet time. They were flying mostly Citation IIs.

Richard Santulli approached Teddy Forstman, the then current owner of Gulfstream saying he would like to start an international operations company using Gulfstreams. Forstman handed the deal to Bill Boisture, then President of Gulfstream, to make happen.

Subsequently, the initial contract between Gulfstream and NetJets was a Bill Boisture - Richard Santulli deal. Forstman and Santulli are too much alike to work together easily. Gulfstream provided the first three "core" aircraft because Santulli and Executive Jet were unable to capitalize them at that time. In order for Gulfstream to provide these aircraft and be part of the deal, it was agreed that only well experienced Gulfstream pilots would be hired for the new venture because safety was to be a key marketing point and NJI buyers would be guaranteed highly qualified, internationally experienced Gulfstream pilots.

It was originally determined that only pilots with a minimum of 2,500 hours in Gulfstreams would be hired. To draw the kind of pilots desired, starting and subsequent salaries were set to be industry standard (and still are).

The first EJI office was in the Gulfstream Customer lounge. Rick Schwartz, Ray Roberts and Peter Hanchak interviewed pilots while Joe Murphy, the present NJI President, shuttled between Savannah and Montvale hammering out compensation, homebasing, organization, workrules and duty periods.

Presently, maintenance, joint marketing and sales relationships exist between Gulfstream and NJI. Gulfstream sells Shares to existing Gulfstream customers and large cabin aircraft owners. NJI sells Gulfstream Shares to mid and small cabin aircraft owners as well as "Concept Buyers."

I can tell you that the pilots at NJI don't want anything to do with the union company and are frankly amazed at NJA's continuing interest in them. They are an autonomous company with their own President, executive staff, maintenance and dispatch/scheduling operations.

We had a couple of 1/8th shares and under NJI's rules the owning companies' pilots can fly in command on NJI aircraft as long as they meet NJI qualification and experience requirements as well as passing written, oral and flight checks. As such, I flew as an NJI Captain on our share aircraft for over a year and got to know many of the line pilots very well. I also know the Okatie leadership group from Gulfstream's efforts in initially establishing the EJI program as well as from working special joint projects with them. I think I have a pretty balanced view of NJI and it is my observation that NJI pilots are a very happy group with the company that they built - just as it is.


GV





~

 

[Diesel]

BizJet737 is probably the best one to tell the "other side" of the story.

 

[AA717driver]

Grizz and Diesel--The point of my post on Roland Wilder zipped right over your heads. (Btw, if someone bought your company and put you on the bottom of the list and then furloughed you exactly how "happy" would you be to have a job to come back to?)

You are pinning your hopes on someone who has already led one pilot group astray. You guys act as if you are breaking new ground here. This book has been written and re-written.

Col. angus--You are seriously ignoring history. There are so few integrations that have gone as smoothly as you are predicting that they are statistically insignificant.

1.) Integrations are rarely adjudicated to the satisfaction of both parties. In all mergers there is one group dealing from a superior position. That group is rarely as charitable as it believes itself to be. (To show your confidence in the fairness for the system, why not go imediately to binding arbitration? Stand by for the wailing and gnashing of teeth.)

2.) I'm sure ASAP is interested in building unity... But not at the expense of the majority of its members (many of whom are a hair's breadth from holding that coveted captain's seat--all the more valuable since people aren't passing on captain bids to get the FO's pay up).

3.) So you'll honor the "career expectations" of the Gulfstream FO's and allow them to upgrade into the captain seat on the Gulfstreams BEFORE the NJA people get a crack at it? That will play well with the rank and file...

4. & 5.) You are already watering down the NJI pilot's expectations despite your "assurances" in sections 1-3. Integrations are nasty business. They do not bring out the best in people. Quite the contrary.

TC
Victim of one integration.
Witness to two more gone bad.