NetJets Application/Interview ?

[Luap Sel]

I was thinking the exact same thing. For once I've gotta agree with Netjet Wife!

Who said military flying was easy? Who said it didn't involve sacrifice? Do you think people in the military don't read the money section of their newspapers? C'mon!!

The pressure of enlisted life, constant moves, the risk of being passed over for promotion or having your a$$ shot off make general aviation look like a tea party.

I agree with you 100%.

Luap Sel.

 

[gunfyter]

Productivity is not a function of your working hard. It is relative production within the scope that the company works within. How does your contract work in getting done what the company needs done. That kind of thing.

The contract works for the company in the way they have negotiated it to work. They have me for 14 hours a day every day I work. What more could they possibly want? And we work Cheap.

The problem when something is cheap is that it is cheap to mismanage.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

Publishers we all want to get the job done. We understand better than anyone else what getting the job done entails.

The missions go on 24/7/365. The logistics are such that what you really need from a business standpoint are pilots that don't need free time, don't need to eat or sleep and who are always ready to go, wait, then go some more regardless of time of day or anything else.

The things we need and want as pilots are directly detrimental to the efficiency of the operation (eating, sleeping ect). But we have to have work rules that are not only possible but also sustainable. Otherwise it would be (and sometimes is) a burn-out job that you can only take for so long.

We need to be productive and we need to address the human needs. If you just want productivity then you are just as shorted sighted a manager as the pilot who thinks he should only have to fly 5 days a month and make 200k.

 

[netjetwife]

Backpedaling now are we?

For the record, I was never talking about flying in the military or any disparaging thing about the military. What I was addressing in specific was Netwife saying that her husband in a desk job had prepared a report that the Generals had ignored. The point was that apparently, management did not agree with him there either.

You called dedicated, professional pilots...I'll highlight it for you...

"If these air force CHILDREN had spent the time working their way through the civilian system, they would have more APPRECIATION for the industry and this company. If it had not been for the creativity and leadership this company had, these people would be out struggling along."

Calling military pilots, many of them combat veterans, boys (essentially) is NOT disparaging? My husband, and others posting here, don't see it that way! And who are you, Publishers, to comment on THEIR appreciation? You know these pilots personally, do you? Here's a tip for you: Air Force is capitalized as a sign of respect. A small point, perhaps, but a very telling one, nonetheless.

You are also misrepresenting my husband's work. There were numerous briefings on the subject of pilot retention/training that were recognized as valuable input. The Generals were NOT in disagreement; they simply were unwilling to go against the political will of the civilian leaders. Those were the drawdown years.

 

[njwingman]

Productivity is not a function of your working hard. It is relative production within the scope that the company works within. How does your contract work in getting done what the company needs done. That kind of thing.

And so, Publishers, if your aircraft is being flown 750 hours per year, how many pilots would you hire to fly the aircraft to "get done what needs done"? And what kinds of flight hours would you expect out of those pilots each year? Each day? And how many nights each year would you expect them to be away from their families? And what would you pay them?

Give us some specifics. You've represented yourself to know. NetJets might need you.

You're in here bashing the guys in the cockpit and putting it all on our backs to make a company successful, when you should be asking yourself if the boys behind the desks are "getting it done". It's a two way street.

 

[Diesel]

NJW pllllllleeeeaaaassse stop posting to every thread. I mean common you've got 228 posts in like a 3 month period.

I work for NJA and I don't even post as much as you do.

 

[cgmason1]

Seriously.

Fly Safe
Chuck

 

[Hawkered]

Publishers,

You have distorted your own perceptions of reality by comparing Carl Icahn and Frank Lorenzo of being victims of a given situation. You have paid enormous disrespect to the military. You seem to feel that pilots should work for less money than a dog groomer, and be worked twice as long. Are there any other pearls of wisdom- oh great one!

Sir, with due respect, you obviously don't have a clue!

Frank Lorenzo was ordered by the DOT to never serve on the board of any airline, ever again. His reprehensible and criminal behavior stole precious savings from every investor he ever dealt with. He shut down a perfectly good airline and failed to abide by the laws of the land in doing so. Don't believe me? Sir, go visit your local library.

I, too am from a military family. Marines and Army. May I give you a pearl of wisdom? NEVER and I mean NEVER NEVER NEVER disrespect your military, especially in a time of war and national emergency!

Comparing flying around Navajos kept together with speed tape at some rag tag operation, served by pilots with nothing but student flight time and debt on their resumes CANNOT be compared to the long and arduous task of being a competent fighter pillot for the greatest military known to the history of mankind!

Just one more little piece of advice. GO AWAY! In about a month or so, come back with an apology and we just....might, just might, let you post here again and offer you a respectful reply.

It's arm chair warriors like you that we don't need in here. Go away and let us fix this industry the likes of you have screwed up for us!!

 

[Publishers]

It is extremely difficult due to the system and program that Netjets has as a service offering. Previously I commented on the cost of crew per occupied hour and why that is important.

The Netjets program is a high utilization one due to the positioning flights and random flights.

Let's say for argument sake, it takes 8 crewmen to do the 750 hours of flight. We will pay them all $100k per year. Total Cost $800,000 plus benefits and taxes.

Ok, we have corporation A who wants to fly the same hours. It is possible that they would do this with 3 full time and one or two contract pilots. Maybe 5 full time. You do the math.

The odds in the corporation flying that the 750 hours are predominantly occupied. I do not know the Netjets percentage.

This is complicated and needs very sophisticated scheduling department to be efficient. It needs a matching contract. The flying everyone around to meet planes and days off schedules has to be a killer in this operation.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

You know it really depends on the type of trips you are flying. If you have a coporate aircraft that is always occupied and a schedule that can be covered with a single crew. And you never need more than one airplane at a time. And it never has unscheduled maintanence. And scheduled maintenance can be completed at times the plane isn't needed... then there is certainly no reason to use a fractional company.

In reality many corporate outfits make difficult calls on whether to leave the plane out sitting someplace for 3 days and cover other trips with charter vs ferrying the plane back and forth empty. This is the very problem that fractional programs are designed to help with.

Then there is the problem of needing to do a trip with an airplane thats not well suited for it. Maybe you need to get into a short runway. Or maybe you need to have longer range. With fractional you can pick and choose the airplane for the mission with upgrades and downgrades.

Again it depends on the type of flying a company needs to get done. If they are always doing the same trip to the same place with the same number of people then that makes the likelyhood of needing to go fractional that much less. They can buy an airplane perfectly suited for that mission and thats great if thats all they need it for.

I really don't think you have a grasp of how business and charter type aircraft are utilized... sorry dude.

 

[gunfyter]

I did 750 hours my first yr... with two 100 hr months. Ok not all occupied. Over 6 yrs only averaging 600... in the X its mostly occupied becase you ferry a .5 and then have a 3 to 5 hr leg. Also a lot af 2 or 3 occupied trips in a row because coast to coast flights tend to be to high utilization airports. SFO-IAD-SJC. The Ultra had a lot of middle of nowhere drops and pickups which then required ferry.

 

[Hawkered]

Gentlemen, please stop feeding the trolls!

 

[njwingman]

Let's say for argument sake, it takes 8 crewmen to do the 750 hours of flight. We will pay them all $100k per year. Total Cost $800,000 plus benefits and taxes.

Ok, we have corporation A who wants to fly the same hours. It is possible that they would do this with 3 full time and one or two contract pilots. Maybe 5 full time. You do the math.

So, if NJ is doing it with a crew of 5??

And will you please answer my other questions? Not just the ones you skate so smoothly around? Let's have a discussion, Publishers, not a lecture. Thanks.

 

[Publishers]

Sctt, I agree with what you said. When I started our 135, we took the position that we would have 3 classes of aircraft so we could handle 3 different type missions. We also eliminated "wait time" and did not guarantee the aircraft would wait. You said when you wanted to go and when you wanted picked up and that is what you got. All full time pilots had to fly all aircraft although only assigned trips in two.

You could charter an Aztec to go to Indiannapolis and be picked up in a King Air if it was convenient for us. We flew check runs from CMH to CLT and let people charter a seat.

Many of the aspects are the same as Netjets but there is a difference from the owner perspective. He is paying a full time cost and a management fee, and, I believe an occupied fee. A friend sent me his agreement when I was doing a fractional consulting job and it was quite a bit to look at and figure out what it was going to cost per hour. I believe to some extent you are right to think that Netjets pays on the lower end of the scale. In teh old days, they only wanted ex Military who were retired to fly and they figured they could pay them less. This was Lassiter and LeMay who came up with that.

What is that level today, I do not know. I do know that it has dragged along much longer than need be and there is not a solution in sight.

Lastly, I did not disrespect the military nor did I say that Frank Lorenzo was a victim of anything. He failed to realize that airlines were different than other companies as they are controlled by DOT and that he could not do what he wanted to. I said he was a scavenger, looking for under valued assets he could take cheap. That is not a victim.

I remain somewhat facinated by the Netjets model and want to see how this plays out, not only from the labor aspect, but, also how the residual value concepts hold up as these aircraft hit the market and the sale of new fractions becomes mature. All the card share programs have taken the fractions to smaller and smaller pieces. While Citation Shares has a program, they cannot get too much going because they do not want to irratate Netjets who I think is their largest customer.

I would really like to see their numbers on pilots per aircraft and occupied crew time. I never really understood why the pilots would be with the Teamsters in the first place although I am sure someone told me along the way.

By the way Hawk, I respect not only the military but the guys flying the Navajo with the speed tape. We were flying Aztec's and 402's on check runs to CLT through CRW from CMH and the winter night flying was always something to keep your proficiency up. I flew them just to stay current.

 

[G550Driver]

Sorry .