NetJets Application/Interview ?

[Publishers]

The high growth rate during the first 5 to ten years is always going to be unsustainable. That meant that upgrades were going to slow too.

Still this company has had its growth through some of the worst times aviation had had. If these air force children had spent the time working their way through the civilian system, they would have more appreciation for the industry and this company. If it had not been for the creativity and leadership this company had, these people would be out struggling along.

When the big airline jobs came to a halt and went the other way, the whole system of people moving up came to a halt and everyone got frustrated. Airnet people did not move on to regionals, regionals did not move on to airlines, etc.

Does the company owe you when the economy or program slows, no, just ask any of the people who are losing their pensions in this mess. Obviously the Air Force did not appreciate the brilliance of Netwifes husband and so now they are blessing Netjets with it although they have not proved they can accomplish anything that is positive for the company.

 

[gunfyter]

The Air Force appreciated it just fine. Its called retirement.

"the creativity and leadership this company had"... was to create pay for training, training contracts, and LOW PAY to build the company on the backs of the pilots.

Now you say its a House of Cards that will collapse if pilots are paid properly?

 

[Live4flyng]

The high growth rate during the first 5 to ten years is always going to be unsustainable. That meant that upgrades were going to slow too.

Still this company has had its growth through some of the worst times aviation had had. If these air force children had spent the time working their way through the civilian system, they would have more appreciation for the industry and this company. If it had not been for the creativity and leadership this company had, these people would be out struggling along.

When the big airline jobs came to a halt and went the other way, the whole system of people moving up came to a halt and everyone got frustrated. Airnet people did not move on to regionals, regionals did not move on to airlines, etc.

Does the company owe you when the economy or program slows, no, just ask any of the people who are losing their pensions in this mess. Obviously the Air Force did not appreciate the brilliance of Netwifes husband and so now they are blessing Netjets with it although they have not proved they can accomplish anything that is positive for the company.

You are a real piece of work. Thank GOD Executive Jet didn't have anything to do with you back in the old days. You have managed to offend everyone possible in just a few sentences. I have it figured out now, you write for the National Inquirer, don't you?

You talk about upgrades and growth during the first 5-10 years and mention unsustainable. Once again you have demonstrated your lack of knowledge with this company. The first 5 years of Executive Jet Aviation as a fractional were the toughest times of all. 1986 ring a bell? Back when all the of aircraft manufacturers laughed at the idea of fractional ownership only to copy the business nearly 15 years later.

Then you talk about "Air Force Children" and how great the leadership was at EJA. Remember where the creativity came from? If it wasn't for the military, you would be out "struggling along" speaking a different language for some dictator. Maybe if you spent some time working your way through the military system, you would have a better appreciation for your country and those who serve it.

And NO, the company doesn't owe us anything. We will negotiate a good wage with work rules that are fair. This time it will be just a little different than the past. The union will actually work for us! I am embarrassed for you Publishers.

 

[Publishers]

Show me. And, as you are such the expert, what was the growth in aircraft on the property between 1985 and 1995? Between 1995 and 2001, and 2001 until today.

 

[gunfyter]

Why do you hate pilots? are you Lorenzo or Icahn?

 

[Starman]

If these air force children had spent the time working their way through the civilian system, they would have more appreciation for the industry and this company.

You just keep destroying what little credibility you had on this board junior. Stupidity is contagious and you caught the mother lode of doses of it. You've gotten so absurd as to be amusing so please keep posting your drivel. It makes me laugh.

 

[Publishers]

I don't hate pilots at all. I am around and hear their opinions on everything literally everyday since most of my friends are pilots and a pretty good mix across the industry. Many of them were airline pilots and are now fractional or corporate pilots. They work hard and deserve the pay they get.

I am no great supporter of Lorenzo or Ichan either, however, I think they both get more blame than they probably deserve. They were in the business of scavenging among bad situations and so they were never going to be popular.

The thing I do believe is that if you take the job, you work the job. If the company does not appreciate my efforts, I am gone. I want to be paid off performance. I do not have much use for a union, all I have ever seen is it protecting the mediocre and destrying the flexibility to meet market changes. If you want to be in one, heh, good for you.

Most of the guys I know were in a union because that is what the place was. They have little interest in it and have been disappointed most of the time they looked to the union for anything.

We share opinions and debate some subjects just like any good friends. On the other hand they are not people on these threads who fly anynonmously through these threads planting their wisdom. They know I am over 60 and have done everything I say I have. They don't sit there and question me about every little detail, they respect my past and desire to help them understand the business end of aviation.

My former 135 staff have all been very successful with Columbus companies flying the Limited shuttle and such. Great for them. I got into these threads because Netwife did not know what she was talking about most of the time and the whinning just got to me. Others kept saying what pilots were paid in other places, well, we have a charter company today and I sure know what people get paid.

 

[njwingman]

Sctt, I've heard that a number of times--have no doubt that it's true--but would like to know exactly when those "glory days" were. Did you witness those things personally, or was it more than 4 years ago? I'm trying to understand the NJ timeline. Do you know what year(s) that was? Thanks.

At the end of 1997, which is close to the time Berkshire bought EJA, the pilot group consisted of approximately 250-300 pilots, I believe. The approximate hiring rates were as follows:

1998 - 100
1999 - 200
2000 - 350
2001 - 525
2002 - 425
2003 - 50

Again, these are approximately, as in 1998 - 2000, the pilot turnover rate was astronomical.

 

[Hawkered]

Publishers,

The salary scales have been slipping for too long and its starting to show up in the quality of candidates and experience levels at the regional airlines. There's a lot going on that you don't read about at the smaller carriers that would really scare passengers away.

It's time everybody got a big raise. Flying was never supposed to be cheap. The very capital involved in start-up precludes that.

Why then should you resent a fair salary for a highly skilled occupation?

We will get it too!

 

[Publishers]

I do not resent it at all. The question is what is a fair salary? Frankly I am more concerned with productivity than salary an dwork rules, scope, and other things that kill the golden goose.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

We don't want to kill the Golden Goose. We just want some of the eggs.

 

[netjetwife]

Thanks for the information, gentlemen. Good post Hawkered.

Publishers, it borders on the ridiculous to imply that NJA pilots are greedy. Same for other pilots that are equally underpaid for their labor and expertise. Your disparaging remarks about the pilots that gave up much to serve their country were not appreciated, and furthermore, had no relevancy to the discussion. NJW

 

[gunfyter]

I do not resent it at all. The question is what is a fair salary? Frankly I am more concerned with productivity than salary an dwork rules, scope, and other things that kill the golden goose.

I don't know how you get any more productive than NJ pilots.

 

[Hawkered]

For once I've gotta agree with Netjet Wife!

Who said military flying was easy? Who said it didn't involve sacrifice? Do you think people in the military don't read the money section of their newspapers? C'mon!!

The pressure of enlisted life, constant moves, the risk of being passed over for promotion or having your a$$ shot off make general aviation look like a tea party.

 

[Publishers]

For the record, I was never talking about flying in the military or any disparaging thing about the military. What I was addressing in specific was Netwife saying that her husband in a desk job had prepared a report that the Generals had ignored. The point was that apparently, management did not agree with him there either.

Productivity is not a function of your working hard. It is relative production within the scope that the company works within. How does your contract work in getting done what the company needs done. That kind of thing.

 

[Luap Sel]

I was thinking the exact same thing. For once I've gotta agree with Netjet Wife!

Who said military flying was easy? Who said it didn't involve sacrifice? Do you think people in the military don't read the money section of their newspapers? C'mon!!

The pressure of enlisted life, constant moves, the risk of being passed over for promotion or having your a$$ shot off make general aviation look like a tea party.

I agree with you 100%.

Luap Sel.

 

[gunfyter]

Productivity is not a function of your working hard. It is relative production within the scope that the company works within. How does your contract work in getting done what the company needs done. That kind of thing.

The contract works for the company in the way they have negotiated it to work. They have me for 14 hours a day every day I work. What more could they possibly want? And we work Cheap.

The problem when something is cheap is that it is cheap to mismanage.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

Publishers we all want to get the job done. We understand better than anyone else what getting the job done entails.

The missions go on 24/7/365. The logistics are such that what you really need from a business standpoint are pilots that don't need free time, don't need to eat or sleep and who are always ready to go, wait, then go some more regardless of time of day or anything else.

The things we need and want as pilots are directly detrimental to the efficiency of the operation (eating, sleeping ect). But we have to have work rules that are not only possible but also sustainable. Otherwise it would be (and sometimes is) a burn-out job that you can only take for so long.

We need to be productive and we need to address the human needs. If you just want productivity then you are just as shorted sighted a manager as the pilot who thinks he should only have to fly 5 days a month and make 200k.

 

[netjetwife]

Backpedaling now are we?

For the record, I was never talking about flying in the military or any disparaging thing about the military. What I was addressing in specific was Netwife saying that her husband in a desk job had prepared a report that the Generals had ignored. The point was that apparently, management did not agree with him there either.

You called dedicated, professional pilots...I'll highlight it for you...

"If these air force CHILDREN had spent the time working their way through the civilian system, they would have more APPRECIATION for the industry and this company. If it had not been for the creativity and leadership this company had, these people would be out struggling along."

Calling military pilots, many of them combat veterans, boys (essentially) is NOT disparaging? My husband, and others posting here, don't see it that way! And who are you, Publishers, to comment on THEIR appreciation? You know these pilots personally, do you? Here's a tip for you: Air Force is capitalized as a sign of respect. A small point, perhaps, but a very telling one, nonetheless.

You are also misrepresenting my husband's work. There were numerous briefings on the subject of pilot retention/training that were recognized as valuable input. The Generals were NOT in disagreement; they simply were unwilling to go against the political will of the civilian leaders. Those were the drawdown years.

 

[njwingman]

Productivity is not a function of your working hard. It is relative production within the scope that the company works within. How does your contract work in getting done what the company needs done. That kind of thing.

And so, Publishers, if your aircraft is being flown 750 hours per year, how many pilots would you hire to fly the aircraft to "get done what needs done"? And what kinds of flight hours would you expect out of those pilots each year? Each day? And how many nights each year would you expect them to be away from their families? And what would you pay them?

Give us some specifics. You've represented yourself to know. NetJets might need you.

You're in here bashing the guys in the cockpit and putting it all on our backs to make a company successful, when you should be asking yourself if the boys behind the desks are "getting it done". It's a two way street.