DC4boy
addicted user
- Joined
- Mar 21, 2002
- Posts
- 221
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
Neptune Aviation P2 down near Tooele, UT
- Thread starter CitationCapt
- Start date
- Watchers 19
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
414Flyer
Down with Chemtrails!
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2002
- Posts
- 4,948
Again, it may be a little premature to call for regulations and talk about acceptable loss rates, particularly with the loss of T-42.
We don't know what happened or why it was lost, beyond that the flight terminated abruptly in a mountainside.
Tom Risk would be among the first to point out that such a mishap is a wake-up call to each of us, each and every time. If nothing else, it's a red flag that reminds us we're all mortal and that our known universe which is fine and well this second might not be the next. These times remind us to do all in our power to keep from becoming the next example.
That said, we don't know what happened. For those calling for greater regulation, exactly what do you intend to regulate? Make it illegal to strike a hillside in flight? Make it illegal to fly at low altitudes? Put in place requirements that we don't crash? No one is foolish enough to suggest such things...but that leaves us with nothing to regulate. We don't know why this mishap occured, and accordingly, inventing rules and regulations to address the unknown is a futile and idiotic endeavor.
Is the loss rate acceptable? It's never been acceptable, even if it's one aircraft, even if it's a single pilot in a SEAT. I appreciate it as much as the next guy (having, among other things in the fire business, seven seasons in SEATs, along with heavy tankers, air attack, and other roles)...and I appreciate it from the perspective of one who was on a hillside following an engine failure during an active fire just three short years ago. I was one of the stats...eight of us went down that season. What to do about it? We fly mechanical equipment into highly variable and unpredictable demanding environments, as you well know. Losses are never acceptable, but are also never a surprise.
No regulation is going to prevent me from striking a hillside. No amount of training will prevent it. All manner of legislation would be a wonderful addition, from the public safety officer's death benefits act to increased rates to operators for wages, training, maintenance, and of course, operations. We've seen innovative and gradual improvements ranging the gamut from duty restrictions to TCAS to AFF, and gone are the days when we'd fly all day, change cylinders all night, and then fly again the next morning. Communications have improved. Bases and facilities are better. But the truth is that no amount of regulation, no amount of legislation, no amount of paperwork will save the industry from the reality of unstable air and burning fuels and rock. It won't prevent incidents or mishaps, it won't bring back the dead, and it won't stop another valued soul from blending with terrain on a steep and rocky slope somewhere. It's going to happen again.
I'd prefer to see you leave speculation out of this thread. I'd prefer to see those who knew the deceased have something to say about their passing, and save the politics and unrelated rantings for another thread. A little respect is in order, because those who were lost will not only be missed, but will be missed by all of us who knew them, with a sad, but solemn respect. Let's not make this an opportunity to wave our favorite causes and flags. We've just lost some good men. Let that be enough.
We don't know what happened or why it was lost, beyond that the flight terminated abruptly in a mountainside.
Tom Risk would be among the first to point out that such a mishap is a wake-up call to each of us, each and every time. If nothing else, it's a red flag that reminds us we're all mortal and that our known universe which is fine and well this second might not be the next. These times remind us to do all in our power to keep from becoming the next example.
That said, we don't know what happened. For those calling for greater regulation, exactly what do you intend to regulate? Make it illegal to strike a hillside in flight? Make it illegal to fly at low altitudes? Put in place requirements that we don't crash? No one is foolish enough to suggest such things...but that leaves us with nothing to regulate. We don't know why this mishap occured, and accordingly, inventing rules and regulations to address the unknown is a futile and idiotic endeavor.
Is the loss rate acceptable? It's never been acceptable, even if it's one aircraft, even if it's a single pilot in a SEAT. I appreciate it as much as the next guy (having, among other things in the fire business, seven seasons in SEATs, along with heavy tankers, air attack, and other roles)...and I appreciate it from the perspective of one who was on a hillside following an engine failure during an active fire just three short years ago. I was one of the stats...eight of us went down that season. What to do about it? We fly mechanical equipment into highly variable and unpredictable demanding environments, as you well know. Losses are never acceptable, but are also never a surprise.
No regulation is going to prevent me from striking a hillside. No amount of training will prevent it. All manner of legislation would be a wonderful addition, from the public safety officer's death benefits act to increased rates to operators for wages, training, maintenance, and of course, operations. We've seen innovative and gradual improvements ranging the gamut from duty restrictions to TCAS to AFF, and gone are the days when we'd fly all day, change cylinders all night, and then fly again the next morning. Communications have improved. Bases and facilities are better. But the truth is that no amount of regulation, no amount of legislation, no amount of paperwork will save the industry from the reality of unstable air and burning fuels and rock. It won't prevent incidents or mishaps, it won't bring back the dead, and it won't stop another valued soul from blending with terrain on a steep and rocky slope somewhere. It's going to happen again.
I'd prefer to see you leave speculation out of this thread. I'd prefer to see those who knew the deceased have something to say about their passing, and save the politics and unrelated rantings for another thread. A little respect is in order, because those who were lost will not only be missed, but will be missed by all of us who knew them, with a sad, but solemn respect. Let's not make this an opportunity to wave our favorite causes and flags. We've just lost some good men. Let that be enough.
Disagree
I totally disagree this is not the time nor the place. I personally knew both Tom and Mike having worked with of them over the years. While this accident is a horrible loss hopefully it is perceived as ANOTHER wakeup call to the industry. Things definety need to change or we all will be standing in the unemployment line. Pilots need to make better decisions, instructors at the companies need to tighten the reins in training, and we definetly need to self regulate ourselves a whole hell of alot better than we do. Times have changed and we as pilots need to relize that. The days of scud running to honor a dispatch are OVER!! We need to wake up.
I totally disagree this is not the time nor the place. I personally knew both Tom and Mike having worked with of them over the years. While this accident is a horrible loss hopefully it is perceived as ANOTHER wakeup call to the industry. Things definety need to change or we all will be standing in the unemployment line. Pilots need to make better decisions, instructors at the companies need to tighten the reins in training, and we definetly need to self regulate ourselves a whole hell of alot better than we do. Times have changed and we as pilots need to relize that. The days of scud running to honor a dispatch are OVER!! We need to wake up.
What makes you think this was a "scud running dispatch?"
Again, inventing rules and regulations when we don't know what happened...is idiotic.
Why T-42 was at that elevation at that time isn't presently known. Scud running? Don't know. Medical problem? Don't know. Aircraft problem? Don't know. We simply don't know why they went down there.
Have you looked at the AFF tracks for that day? I had discussions with the USFS about it two days ago, and they weren't scud running from Missoula to Alamogordo. A descent occured in there for reasons that aren't known.
Until they are known, make it a "wake up" call all you like...but wake up to what? To what we don't know? Rather than speculate and guess, which is very unprofessional and not in keeping with what we do, all we can hope for is increased vigilance on the part of everyone.
Again, I ask, do you have some special insight here, some crystal ball, that nobody else has? I think not. Wait for the facts.
Again, inventing rules and regulations when we don't know what happened...is idiotic.
Why T-42 was at that elevation at that time isn't presently known. Scud running? Don't know. Medical problem? Don't know. Aircraft problem? Don't know. We simply don't know why they went down there.
Have you looked at the AFF tracks for that day? I had discussions with the USFS about it two days ago, and they weren't scud running from Missoula to Alamogordo. A descent occured in there for reasons that aren't known.
Until they are known, make it a "wake up" call all you like...but wake up to what? To what we don't know? Rather than speculate and guess, which is very unprofessional and not in keeping with what we do, all we can hope for is increased vigilance on the part of everyone.
Again, I ask, do you have some special insight here, some crystal ball, that nobody else has? I think not. Wait for the facts.
As a matter of fact i have seen they're track on AFF. I know what altitude they were flying and what there airspeed was. I also know what the current weather conditions in the Toole and Salt Lake area were at that present time. Plain and simple one crews BAD decision making has a huge effect on the industry and how we are percieved. You can give the credit to my crystal ball, but big changes are already starting to happening at Neptune. Like i said the old school ways have to change or we are all going to be out of a job.
You don't know it was bad decision making. You don't know what took that airplane to that level. I also have seen the AFF track, and they didn't make the entire flight at that altitude. We don't know how or why they ended up at that point; you're speculating, guessing, and your comments are both unprofessional and unproductive.
It WAS horrible decision making and it regrettably cost them their lives. Flying VFR into IMC conditions is not acceptable in any case. Your correct the entire flight was not flown at their final altitude. Clouds were definetly alot lower in the SLC area. Have you had contact with anyone from Neptune Inc in the last couple of days?? Sounds like there is a alot of speculation coming straight out of Missoula. Give any of there pilots a call and ask them about the recent changes that are a result of this crash. It may shock you. I'm not stating my opinion to disrespect any of the crew. I'm stating it because i deeply give a sh** about the future. Just remember we are one crash away from being shut down. Here's some interesting reading for you. It was posted by a firefighter today on another website. When we lose the ground troops support we are in dire trouble. The bullsh** has to stop here.
Abs & All,
My deepest condolences to the families and friends of the crew of Tanker 42.
This has to stop. Frankly, I would rather give up being the recipient of another load of fixed-wing delivered retardant on any fire for which I am responsible for the duration of my fire career than to ever have to see yet another set of families ripped apart by the loss of their loved ones. It ain't worth it.
Based on our recent history, the current odds against surviving a year's work as an air tanker pilot in the US are somewhere around 20 to 1. No offense to the fine people who fly these aircraft, but that is beyond shameful. It is scandalous, and the federal land management agencies need to be held accountable. The price of retardant is just too damn high these days.
Abs & All,
My deepest condolences to the families and friends of the crew of Tanker 42.
This has to stop. Frankly, I would rather give up being the recipient of another load of fixed-wing delivered retardant on any fire for which I am responsible for the duration of my fire career than to ever have to see yet another set of families ripped apart by the loss of their loved ones. It ain't worth it.
Based on our recent history, the current odds against surviving a year's work as an air tanker pilot in the US are somewhere around 20 to 1. No offense to the fine people who fly these aircraft, but that is beyond shameful. It is scandalous, and the federal land management agencies need to be held accountable. The price of retardant is just too damn high these days.
No i'm not new to this business, are you?? Just from your previous posts on this subject i have a very good idea you do not work for any of the current LAT operators. This would explain why your not receiving the same info the rest of us are, but since you have been in contact with personal from Neptune you must know the changes that are currently being implemented as a result of this crash. It sure seems like a costly, unnecessary reaction by the company if it is based purely on speculation. I have a feeling they have a very good idea what happened. If you remember all our LAT are equipped with recording devices now. Obviously, you and I can argue about this until the final report comes out. My point is that may be too late if we do not change. Bad judgement is going to kill this industry. There is no reason to take unnecessary chances anymore, the days of flight pay are gone. The pressure to keep food on the table went away with it. We need to realize this is not 1980!!
I remember what it used to be like, mate...and today the business is nothing like that. Not in the slightest.
Take a vallium, calm down a little, reign in your horses, and realize that the industry isn't shutting down today.
The sky isn't falling. T-42 wasn't lost over a fire or as the result of a retardant request; it was lost on a point to point repositioning, enroute to a fire...but we don't know why.
Yes, neptune is taking steps. Neptune hasn't stood still in the past when losses have occured, either. Do you know why orange flight suits are worn today at Neptune? I do, and it was the direct result of a mishap. Much like the "FAR's," what we do in this industry is very much written in blood.
Making up rules and screaming bloody murder in abject ignorance (as we know nothing of the facts, presently) won't change that...no matter how great the panic you may feel.
Again, as you seem to lack the professionalism to realize this, perhaps you might consider starting a new thread to rant about your political views, rather than pollute this one.
Take a vallium, calm down a little, reign in your horses, and realize that the industry isn't shutting down today.
The sky isn't falling. T-42 wasn't lost over a fire or as the result of a retardant request; it was lost on a point to point repositioning, enroute to a fire...but we don't know why.
Yes, neptune is taking steps. Neptune hasn't stood still in the past when losses have occured, either. Do you know why orange flight suits are worn today at Neptune? I do, and it was the direct result of a mishap. Much like the "FAR's," what we do in this industry is very much written in blood.
Making up rules and screaming bloody murder in abject ignorance (as we know nothing of the facts, presently) won't change that...no matter how great the panic you may feel.
Again, as you seem to lack the professionalism to realize this, perhaps you might consider starting a new thread to rant about your political views, rather than pollute this one.
I know why orange flight suits are worn there, I was there at the time. The fact remains T-42 hit a mountain on a reposition flight. Not a normal occurance for a ferry flight but one that is alarmingly common in Tankers, that cannot be denied. Did they have a problem? maybe, Neptunes are old, stuff happens. Regardless this accident will have far reaching implications for the heavy tankers, what they will be no one knows.
BushwickBill
Registered Abuser
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2005
- Posts
- 822
What about TAWS? Its all but eliminated this type of accident in 135 and 121.
Sure it would be annoying as hell during fire fighting but it would help during other phases of flight.
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
