Neptune Aviation P2 down near Tooele, UT

[flyingwildfires]

+1.

What a waste of human life, a good airplane, all for nothing.

 

[avbug]

Do you maintain Avbug that this was NOT a CFIT that killed them all?

I said nothing of the kind. You have a comprehension problem.

And before you get all 'high and mighty' about this crew was on some heroic mission....

I said nothing of the kind. Your comprehension problem is consistent.

They were on a friggin cross country flight of nearly 1100 miles!

I've done many such dispatches in tankers, all on very short notice. Do you have a point?

The FO never had the expectation that his IFR flight plan had been accepted the night before, because the factual data clearly indicates he attempted to file VFR flight plan and with a VFR altitude.

You don't know this. However, it's irrelevant.

So give me a break Avbug!

Which leg would you prefer, first?

So avbug, call me stupid.

No need; you already did that, yourself. Then you proceeded to prove it.

 

[ultrarunner]

So Avbug, are not willing to offer an opinion as to what led the FO to fly into rising terrain killing himself and his co-works?

I asked you a couple of questions and you don't even answer....

I asked you if you though it was CFIT, and you just make a statement??? What's that about?

I commented the FACTUAL data indicated the FO attempted to file a VFR flight plan...NOT an IFR flight plan. What kind of flight plan do you think he was trying to file Avbug?

If what you claim is true about your experience in tankers, and you seem to be placing this flight in that type of environment, why not add something to the discussion.

PLEASE help educate us all....

Since the more information we have in deciphering the incredibly stupid decisions made that day by the flight crew, will ultimately help us all. Don't you think?

 

[avbug]

Don't you think?

Unlike you, I do think, and on a regular basis, too. I have the benefit of doing so, of course, on a well-matted bed of experience.

Since the more information we have in deciphering the incredibly stupid decisions made that day by the flight crew, will ultimately help us all.

Another stupid assumption on your part. You believe this will help make you a better tanker pilot,then? First, you'll need to get a foot in the door, won't you? Otherwise, given that you can't fathom the concept of short-notice dispatches, flying in low visibility at low altitudes, of flying long distances in large airplanes VFR..there's really nothing here that can help you. Given your commentary, it would appear that you can't be helped.

What kind of flight plan do you think he was trying to file Avbug?

I don't care. I don't speculate. It's irrelevant.

A flight plan had no bearing on the outcome, and would have had no outcome on the bearing. The flight operated under the AFF system, and didn't require a flightplan. The flight was tracked on AFF. When I was forced down on a mountainside on a fire several years ago, the National Interagency Fire Center in Boise was aware of it at nearly the same moment everyone on the fire was aware. When the little airplane symbol on my tag changed to show I wasn't moving, it set a lot of things in motion, far faster and far more effective than the filing of a FAA flight plan.

Whether the crew filed or didn't file, whether they intended to file and didn't file, whether they didn't intend to file and did, whether they planned on filing one way and changed their minds, is irrelevant.

The loss of the airplane and crew is unfortunate, and regrettable. Your idiotic assertion that it was an act of murder does little more than speak poorly of you. That you've dug yourself this pit of embarrassment and continue to dig, also speaks poorly of you. That you don't realize it, really says it all.

I asked you if you though it was CFIT, and you just make a statement???
What's that about?

It's about eleven words affirming your clear comprehension problem, once again.

So avbug, call me stupid.

Why do you continue to insist on offering proof?

 

[ultrarunner]

Otherwise, given that you can't fathom the concept of short-notice dispatches..

Notification the evening before a flight is hardly a 'short-notice dispatch' avbug. And certainly plenty of time to determine if a flight can be done safely or not.

And yes, I have flown long VFR flights safely. I would this crew could have done the same.

And if you think about it. Folks such as these, that are charged with potentially saving the lives of others, need to do it better than the rest of us, since their life-saving skills do us no good if they can't arrive on-station alive.

Good bye.

 

[avbug]

Folks such as these, that are charged with potentially saving the lives of others, need to do it better than the rest of us, since their life-saving skills do us no good if they can't arrive on-station alive.

There you go again, hell-bent-for-leather, trying to prove that you have no clue what it is you're talking about. You're doing a good job, too.

You say "Always" a few too many times, didn't you?

 

[firepilot]

This was not your typical "short notice" dispatch. The crew definitely dropped the ball, so to speak, during the flight planning phase of this mission. The majority of the decisions made (and yes I knew the crew personally) during this flight showed a lack of good judgement. When encountering weather in a tanker (an EMPTY tanker at that) you have choices: 1. FILE, FILE, FILE 2. Turn around 3. Land (both Hill and Ogden were right there). Scud running (no matter how much low level experience you have...i.e. Tanker 99) is not acceptable. This fatal accident was caused by stupidity, and was very preventible.

 

[ultrarunner]

Firepilot, I thought I was basically communicating the same thing. What's up with Avbug that he continually gave me such a hard time about my posts? You and I are on the same page.

 

[avbug]

The tanker crew isn't required to file or land, but may pick up a clearance airborne and continue (a "pop-up" clearance), or may elect to remain VFR or continue under VFR. Therefore, the assertion that "you have choices: 1. FILE, FILE, FILE 2. Turn around 3. Land" is incorrect.

I thought I was basically communicating the same thing.

You were, which means you're both wrong.

 

[Meat n the Seat]

Do any of you guys know what level of ice protection equipment is installed and required to be operational on these aircraft?

 

[ultrarunner]

I would think they would need known ice certification, if you are going to operate in that environment. This plane was not equiped to operate in an icing environment.

 

[firepilot]

Avbug....A tanker crew is not exempt from being required to file when ferrying in instrument conditions (which they obvoiously were). I know this because i'm in the heavy tanker industry. Just because they were flight following with NIFC on AFF does not give them an exemption to operate in IMC conditions. Avbug talks like he is an industry expert. I'm kind of curious how long he actually flew fires.

 

[acpilot]

Avbug talks like he is an industry expert. I'm kind of curious how long he actually flew fires.

For many, many years. He's not saying that they are exempt from filing IFR in IMC.

 

[avbug]

If one is enroute during a VFR cross country and encounters weather, one need not land and file a flight plan. A "pop-up" clearance is effective and done often. I've done it many times myself. Including while flying a heavy tanker.

My firefighting experience is limited to heavy tankers, single engine tankers, air attack, fire patrol, etc, as well as a number of years of firefighting on the ground doing wildland, and structural. This isn't particularly relevant to what happened to Tom and company, though I will say I flew with Tom and knew him well. You asked.

A tanker crew is not exempt from being required to file when ferrying in instrument conditions (which they obvoiously were)

No, they obviously were not. They were making a VFR cross country, and obviously performed continued VFR into IMC conditions. Not ferrying in instrument conditions. They attempted to stay out of instrument conditions, initially.

I know the area where it ended, intimately. I owned a house there, lived near the base of the hill where they were killed. I dropped retardant on the same hillside where they died. I had a fire contract there for several years. I've flown that area in all conditions, including low visibility on fires. I've done it in high winds, and extreme turbulence. I've been on search teams on the ground for children lost in the old mines. I know those hills about as well as I know any place. Personally, I wouldn't have made the decision to do as they did.

Tom and I disagreed on many occasions. I have always known Tom Risk to make decisons that were considerably more conservative, and safer than the other guy. I've known Tom to make mistakes, too; he was human. I've been known to make mistakes, being human, too.

I don't presume to know why Tom elected to permit flight at that location. I don't presume to know the specifics involved, and I don't assume. Others here do, and rush to judgment.

The story here isn't new. The P3 in Missoula, the P2 at San Bernadino, and so on. Continued VFR into IMC has long been, and will continue to be a slippery-slope killer. In the fire business, we regularly operate in low visibility under VFR...very often in IMC while operating under VFR. It's frequently the nature of firefighting. I've been there in single engine tankers, and heavy tankers. Nearly always in mountainous terrain, and often as not in turbulent conditions. Operating in low visibility in close proximity to terrain is very nearly second nature, as is operating close to the ground.

That this familiarity, far more than most pilots would likely understand, may have played a factor in the decision to go where this flight went, is a possibility. Not a certainty. The only certainty here is that the airplane hit the hillside, and that everyone is dead.

One can play guesswork as to what was referenced with the color yellow, whether it was the garmin terrain feature or xm weather. One can play guesswork as to what was being seen in the cockpit. One can play guesswork as to the assertiveness of each crewmember, or the lack thereof. One can play guesswork as to where they thought they were (I can tell you from the transcript that they were not where they thought they were, which very likely played a big role in the event...and that if they'd been where they indicated that they thought they were, it wouldn't have been a problem). In the end, guesswork proves nothing more than nothing.

The comments from certain here, however, are nearly laughable...as said before, some of you have spent too much time watching "Always." Great movie, but far from reality.

 

[flyingwildfires]

This has nothing to do with "Always". Yes, I knew the crew, too. They knew that weather was balled up along the Wasatch before they left MSO.

It was stupid, and a prime example of what not to do. Wondering why the hell they continued on makes my head hurt. It's a goddamned shame.

 

[say again]

Better planning would've prevented this.

 

[414Flyer]

It is a reality that we face in aerial firefighting, you can make good decisions 99,000 times out of 10,000, but that one time can result in you being in a pile of wreckage on a hillside.

Its also a reality that people who enter this field, can be a bit more fiercely independent and strong willed, if we just wanted to be a faceless number on a seniority list we have chosen something else to do with our lives.

That being said however, getting acrimonious about this does no good at all, and probably not what Tom and Mike would be wanting out of fellow aerial firefighters. I would much rather honor what they did, learn from what happened, and endeavor to not repeat that kind of event, which has unfortunately happened much too often and cost the lives of some great people.

We are all human and we will sometimes have lapses in judgement. It can be tempting to give in to pressure from dispatchers, or maybe someone in ones personal life is going on. There was another crash a few years ago (mentioned in this thread I think) where a P-2 crashed into mountains. I am flying with someone who was a good friend of CD (no not Captain Dad) and said that CD was in the midst of a really nasty divorce, and he came this close to suggesting to him to sit on the ground for a while until its all done, over all all the personal issues from it. He still has some guilt over never getting around to making that suggestion.

All I can do, is just hope to learn from their mistakes, and not find a new one of my own to make.

 

[flyingwildfires]

Yup, plenty of accidents, unfortunately.

I still hope they'll stop someday, but they never seem to.

 

[BushTheIdiot]

Final report. Due to serious issues in his non online life, Avbug takes solace in cutting others down on FI.com.

 

[avbug]

Very productive. When you've nothing to contribute, you fall back to mindless non-relevant personal potshots. Generally the sign of a weak, and empty mind.

No surprise, really. Your name fits.