Neptune Aviation P2 down near Tooele, UT

[BushTheIdiot]

Very productive. When you've nothing to contribute, you fall back to mindless non-relevant personal potshots. Generally the sign of a weak, and empty mind.

No surprise, really. Your name fits.

There you go, trying to out-hypocrite yourself...AGAIN.

Sorry that the truth in my previous post struck a nerve. However, keep compensating with your misplaced arrogance if it makes you feel better.

 

[firepilot]

I wonder what he was compensating for when he was doing Duane's laundry??

 

[avbug]

Sorry that the truth in my previous post struck a nerve.

It didn't. You've clearly got nothing to contribute here, and given your very limited posting history on the site, you likely won't have anything to contribute in the near or distant future, either. It seems that your posting consists of exactly what you're doing here; mindlessly barging into a thread with nothing useful to add, flapping your gums, then moving on.

You've not got the wherewithal or capability to strike a nerve, mate. Don't flatter yourself.

I still hope they'll stop someday, but they never seem to.

Of course they won't stop.

I found the attitude of the general masses at Reno several years ago to be rather telling. During an open-floor discussion about Gary Nagel's loss, pilot after pilot stood to say he had been sure something would happen, but had been waiting for the next guy to call it off. Each man, to a man, very uncomfortable with the conditions over the fire, yet each unwilling to make the call. None had to, of course, because Gary died on the fire, and that put the brakes on the operation.

Will fatalities stop? No.

Are they preventable? Yes.

TCAS, EGPWS, and advanced training and more frequent recurrency won't stop the losses. Fresh blood won't stop the losses.

Only each person who holds a card, each person who flies a fire, each person who dispatches, flight follows, loads retardant, turns a wrench, or signs a paycheck has it in his or her power to change the statistics. We all know that it's never a matter of if, but when, and every time we lose someone we all know, there's a collective gasp for air as we stop holding our breath for the season and reality once again shows it's face. Nothing new under the sun.

I lost track of the pilots who put paychecks over safety, and survived it so many times they became living legends with a ticking clock on their back. Some make it long enough to retire, others don't. We all know the tried and true "it's only trees and grass," and it was me that came up with and first presented "it's not an emergency, it's out job:" the slogan you see on all the posters. It's a can-do industry with a can-do attitude, and it's that can-do attitude that gets people killed. I've met far too many who honestly believe that our mission is to find a way to make it happen, when the proper attitude is to look for ways to not allow it to happen, and then go if we can't find any. "Safety of flight," is the magic buzzword, but too often it's trampled in favor of the bottom line.

We are an industry full of talented professionals in a very unique occupation; I've met very, very few with whom I wouldn't share a cockpit, and I've shared it with many. One thing I never did was Duane's laundry, of course, but then you probably knew that.

When Safecoms quit being weapons or meaningless must-do's for bureaucrats, when resource orders become requests and not orders, we can look to a time when we see less mishaps. We see them less today than we did, and there have been many positive advances in the industry. Everything we do, every policy we follow, every contract requirement and limitation, every regulation, every jot and tittle, is written in blood. It's the changes paid for in that blood that have written where we are today, and the writing is incomplete. Until it is, more lives will pay to slowly shape the changes that are required to move the industry toward that place when losing a friend is the exception, rather than the rule.

Until then, we have the rule none of us wants, but into which each of us may at any given time, contribute.

I knew Tom, I flew with Tom, I knew his character, and he was a good man. Those who say aught, know not whence they speak.

 

[BushTheIdiot]

It didn't. You've clearly got nothing to contribute here, and given your very limited posting history on the site, you likely won't have anything to contribute in the near or distant future, either. It seems that your posting consists of exactly what you're doing here; mindlessly barging into a thread with nothing useful to add, flapping your gums, then moving on.

You've not got the wherewithal or capability to strike a nerve, mate. Don't flatter yourself.

Convince yourself of anything that makes you happy there, Sparky. You KNOW that my original post in this thread is true and to deny that is just lying to yourself. If your forum life gets you through your real life, go ahead. Just know that I'm not the only one that's on to your dramatics.

 

[DC4boy]

it was me that came up with and first presented "it's not an emergency, it's out job:" -------------You're kidding, right....


What other erroneous slogans have you come up with?

 

[firepilot]

It is common knowledge amongst tanker drivers(current and retired) that you were seen doing Duane's laundry!! Definitely not the legacy i would want to leave behind.

 

[avbug]

The slogan isn't erroneous; it's been used on the CDF posters for years, now. That slogan was taken from my posts on the AAP web board.

I never did Duane's laundry (did you??). Nor is such a rumor "common knowledge." Your credibility just went to zero.

Just know that I'm not the only one that's on to your dramatics.

It's hard to know what you're on, mate, but for one who calls himself an idiot, you surely need do very little to prove it. Time and time again. Nothing more need be said about you, other than

This message is hidden because BushTheIdiot is on your ignore list.

Fixed.

 

[firepilot]

Are you kidding me?? It was you that came up with that slogan. Come on, next your going to tell me you were one of the founders of AAP. Your telling me i have no credibility? Have you ever had any in the industry?? And yes people do still laugh about the laundry incident.

 

[avbug]

I've flown with a lot of folks in the industry, as well as done many of the things we can do in the business...year of fighting fire on the ground (structural, and wildland, and medical), air attack, fire patrol, point to point, large air tankers, single engine air tankers, etc. I've yet to do anyone's laundry, however. I've yet to hear a soul suggest I should, which means only that as funny as you think yourself to be, your lies are nothing more than lies.

I'm not the founder of AAP, nor an officer thereof, and have no desire to be.

Yes, I'm most certainly telling you that you have no credibility. In fact, your identity here was created for, and has done nothing more than post in this thread.

 

[firepilot]

That is absolutely true. I registered my account with this website to post on this particular thread. The reason being i was having a hard time stomaching your posts representing yourself as an industry expert while belittling other posters who had an opinion. As for CDF stealing your slogan i have to throw the b.s. flag. Also, i would like to extend a personal invitation to you on behalf of the AAF (formerly AAP) to attend the meeting this fall. I would love the opportunity to tell you your full of **** face to face, so please consider attending.

 

[avbug]

Whomever said or suggested that CDF stole my comment? Your inability to comprehend has been manifest in more than one post thus far. We see that nothing has changed.

Clearly you've nothing to contribute here. Your inability to carry a discussion with rational thought, and your need to resort to mindless personal attacks is nothing more than a classic sign of a weak mind.

Given your comments, your participation in the industry is highly suspect, and given that your credibility is a flat zero without hope of elevation, you can safely be dismissed as a fraud. Given that no further time need be wasted on you, welcome to the ignore list.

This message is hidden because firepilot is on your ignore list.

 

[DC4boy]

"It's not an emergency; it's our job"

I've never been a huge fan of that statement. I understand it's intent, but if you can't operate in the emergency environment safely, find a different career field.

 

[firepilot]

"Given your comments, your participation in the industry is highly suspect, and given that your credibility is a flat zero without hope of elevation, you can safely be dismissed as a fraud. Given that no further time need be wasted on you, welcome to the ignore list."

Anytime your credibility is questioned you hurriedly place them on your ignore list. So i ask, who can safely be dismissed the fraud?? I am currently sitting in CA on contract. Where are you?? I just believe everyone on this website should know you are not a "heavy hitter" in the industry, and you do not in anyway represent the industry.

 

[say again]

Dont like people with a different opinion then yours Avbug? Some of those opinions are spot on.

 

[BornAgainPagan]

Yeah avbug, put me on your ignore list too....whatever.

It is becoming evident that every poster that dares to contradict your exalted expertise on everything is at risk of the scorn of your ignore list! ooooohhhh! Not to mention, the ones that call you out on your borderline sociopathic conduct will be ignored too.

 

[avbug]

I have no problem with other opinions, however wrong they may be, or with the people who have those opinions, who contribute intelligently to the topic at hand. You, like others here, offer neither.

If one intends to offer something on the subject, then one should know what one is talking about, which automatically eliminates most posters here.

As for the ignore list: it certainly doesn't represent scorn, but rather an appropriate response to posters who don't merit the time of day, or a second thought. While you've nothing to contribute here, there may be hope, and for the present, you may remain.

I've never been a huge fan of that statement.

Ironically, in it's present context, neither have I, because that wasn't the purpose or reason it was originally given.

Having seen too many who rush to the scene, who get fire fever when the dollars are there to be made, or who have tried to justify that rush by insinuating that it's an emergency (and therefore, the normal rules and practices don't apply), the statement that "it's not an emergency, it's our job," was originally intended to convey something else entirely. It's more aligned with the familiar "it's only trees, and grass."

One may say the same thing applies to Tom's final flight. Is any mission, sortie, resource order, dispatch, or request important enough that safety doesn't come first? Of course not. Never the less, we see so many losses which seemingly defy explanation, all in abject defiance of rule #1: safety comes first. It's not an emergency. It's our job.

There should never come a time when the need to put the wet stuff on the red stuff outshines the need to complete a checklist, fly a proper drop pattern, adhere to the one-in, one-out policy in the fire traffic area, maintain traffic awareness, monitor fatigue, and perform adequate preventative maintenance. None the less, we see blatant violations of these practices and requirements all too often.

I watched an individual reject a loaded takeoff several years ago, during a going fire, for failure to ensure the control lock was removed. We were around the 12th load or so of a day with rang out at 18 loads, total. That individual felt that on the quick turns we were doing, a complete checklist wasn't necessary. He survived having given in to the notion that an emergency takes precedence over a job, but the reality nearly turned out very differently. It's not an emergency. It's our job.

In a world where many jurisdictions have recognized the futility of racing to the scene of the crime or the fire, many departmental requirements allow only 10 mph over the posted speed limit, for emergency response vehicles. Why? Because statistics were showing that the greater hazard wasn't the fire itself, but getting there. The phenomenon of ambulances which get in a wreck on the way to or from a scene is well known, and for the same reason, fire vehicles, law enforcement, and emergency medical often run without lights or sirens...as these have been known to cause emergencies that wouldn't have existed without the use of that equipment. Likewise, it behooves us to slow down during a dispatch. A wind driven fire tends to grow exponentially with favorable terrain and dry fuels. Time is an important factor, but never so important that one should disregard the fact that it's not the emergency that's the thing, but the job.

As a fire professional, one performs precision delivery of retardant on fuels, and does it with repeatability, safety, and care. Hitting a hillside only increases the fire, denies a return load, and leaves families and friends shaking their heads and shedding a tear. We are all acutely aware of the potentials during any given season, and we all accept these alternate possibilities on the guarantee that we will do all we can to prevent them while performing to a standard that merits the call "load and return."

We do this over and over because it's not an emergency in progress. It's our job, and for the large part, a job we all do well. When we don't do it well, at the least we have an ineffective job. All too often, however, failure to perform well isn't on par with an airline pilot making a go-around off a bad approach, or an upset corporate client because the flight is delayed a few minutes. Failure to perform well on the fire ground results in death, loss of property, and elevated hazard to other aircraft, other aircrews, and troops on the ground. The cost of failure to perform well is high, and unacceptable. When we fly, it is not an emergency, but rather, our job, and one with which we cannot afford to fail to to accurately and consistently, with one singular overriding priority: safety at all costs. Our job is the thing. Not the emergency. We didn't create the emergency, we are only a tool in the service of incident command, and little more. Rushing to the scene, rushing to fly, and pushing limits beyond the necessities of a safe operation do not enhance the mission, but put it at risk. It's perfectly acceptable to deal with an emergency, so long as it is not of one's own making. One should always beware, so goes the old saw, of scars earned in battles in which one should never have fought.

It's not an emergency. It's our job.

 

[BushTheIdiot]

While you've nothing to contribute here, there may be hope, and for the present, you may remain.

ahh, Pagan you can now pull the razor away from your wrist! i am sure your life is complete again.

 

[firepilot]

I have no problem with other opinions, however wrong they may be, or with the people who have those opinions, who contribute intelligently to the topic at hand. You, like others here, offer neither.

I believe what Avbug meant to say was that he does not have a problem with posters who agree with HIS opinion. However, if you have your OWN opinion YOU have nothing to offer the thread!!

 

[BornAgainPagan]

While you've nothing to contribute here, there may be hope, and for the present, you may remain.

ahh, Pagan you can now pull the razor away from your wrist! i am sure your life is complete again.

heh heh, yeah, I can live my life again now that I know that I am not on avbug's ignore list........................yet!

 

[BornAgainPagan]

I believe what Avbug meant to say was that he does not have a problem with posters who agree with HIS opinion. However, if you have your OWN opinion YOU have nothing to offer the thread!!

His philosophy; Agree with me, or you're an idiot!

(some old men need to grow up......just sayin')