Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Nea Endorses John Kerry For President?

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
"What, how many people have lost theirs jobs since Bush took office, ahh, only over 2 million"

Truthfully, that's one of the most ill-informed statements I've ever seen. It presupposes an instantaneous input from the white house after the election.

No, my "umm"ing and "ahh"ing friend, the economic losses are clearly the result of the false bubble that built up during the Clinton administration. This does not mean it was Clinton's fault, but it does mean that what happend after Bush took office was the final chapter of the economy under two terms of Clinton.

Like it or not, business moves in cycles. You can try and stimulate an economy by cutting taxes, and that is already afoot. That's about the best anyone can do.
 
Timebuilder said:
I don't wonder, when a suburban school pays its administrators like CEO's, and the kids have multiple fields, gyms, and swimming pools. The Janitors make as much as regional captains.

No, I don't wonder.

What suburb, or fantasy land, are you living in? Public schools are constantly starving for money, the TEACHERS don't get paid enough to afford to buy a small apartment in many cities, and your republican leaders want to reduce their spending even further in order to fund more private schools - a regressize tax if there ever was one. Janitors might make as much as regional FO's, but it's hardly a situation where school employees are over paid and underworked, as you want to make it out to be. Swimming pools? Maybe some school somewhere was lucky enough to have one, but many schools can't afford air conditioning in the middle of a hot summer.

You just have a really twisted perception of the way things really are sometimes. But what else would we expect from someone who doesn't think other cutlures and lifestyles could possibly have "equivalent value". How many times do you have to be told, it's NOT your place in this world to determine other cultures value.
 
Thank you KickSave

My wife's a teacher, too.

What you speak is the 100% truth. I stopped counting the number of times she's been upset about her kids not having enough textbooks, the fact that she had to buy copier paper because she's only "allowed" one ream/month, etc., etc....

And Hop-Along Bush wants to take more money away from the system. WTF?

I challenge all of you to go find a public school teacher and ask him/her if they've had to spend any of their own money (of which they make very little) on necessities for their classroom.

I'll answer it for you. It's gonna be 100%.
 
Last edited:
And Hop-Along Bush wants to take more money away from the system. WTF?

I don't know where your school is, but I can tell you this: ALL of the people I know who work as public school teachers live VERY well, and are never having a shortage of paper, books, or anything else.

100%.

I don't doubt the truth of your assertion, Brett, but I think it is atypical in most districts in America.


My district has thousands of poor people and very few people that meet even my meager financial status, and still the kids are getting the OFFER of a good eduaction. Not all students apply themselves, and some parents are undereducated themselves, so it is incumbent upon the inspiration of the teacher and the desire of the student for learning to occur. Maybe our biggest problem in education is the lack of "readiness" on the part of students. Remeber the FOI?


Now, I don't want the federal governement being in the education business in any other capacity that to assure that graduating students and the teachers that teach them meet a reasonable standard of competancy.

It is a mistake for this to be seen as yet another "entitlement" program for the public schools, particularly since so many of them have failed to teach. Just as I pointed out in our (now nonexistant) discussion of drugs in poor neighborhoods, we simply don't care enough to do what needs to be done in public schools. We'd rather just throw money at the problem, and expect, once again, for Big Brother to make it all well for us.

So, while you might see Bush as Hop A Long, and your family supports the draconian PC style of teaching that is the heart of the NEA, I see Bush as rightly making sure that the first responsibility for teaching rests with the districts and the states.

And the desire of the students to apply themselves, and being willing to learn.
 
Last edited:
But what else would we expect from someone who doesn't think other cutlures and lifestyles could possibly have "equivalent value". How many times do you have to be told, it's NOT your place in this world to determine other cultures value.

My angry (and incorrect) friend: it would take someone much more important to me than you to convince me that I do not have all of the tools I need to asess the value of cultures for my self, or that I do not have the right to share my opinon with others. I support your right to your opinion, but I think you would be much happier as a government supported slacker living in France.

You are free here in America to share your opinion. Like the opinon of the Dixie chicks, you must be prepared when someone such as myself decides to disagree with you.

I know several schools that are building brand new gyms and pools right now.

What suburb, or fantasy land, are you living in?

A poor suburb of Philadelphia that has seen all of its industry go to the sun belt and overseas. Now, our town has mostly public assistance and state mental health open-door facilities.

Across the river, in a nicer area, they have THREE swimming pools.

You can say that I have a "twisted perception" of reality, but when you complain that a school can't afford air conditioning, I have to laugh out loud. Where the heck are you? Arizona?

I never attended a class in a room that had air conditioning until I was 45 years old! If this is the standard in most public schools, I must thank you. You have just supported my point.

Oh, and my friend the vice principle? He's in the Bahamas right now. The janitor is going to Disney World.
 
Govt supported my A$$! YOu're the one who tastes the govt cheese, not me! LOL I've never been on unemployement or welfare for a second, despite not having a full time job since Bush took over the office. Thanks though for offering to help:p

But anyway, I simply have to question the validity of your facts if you assert that public schools have more money than they know what to do with. That's fantastic that some janitor is going to DisneyWorld, how on earth does that disprove Brett Hulls point that public school class rooms all across the country are under funded for the basic simple necessities like paper and text books? Maybe air conditioning was a bad example, even though I do live in the southwest, where temps routinely reach 110 degrees, and sitting in a crowded classroom without AC is not only not condusive to learning, its dangerous. Of course you didn't need AC in Philly in June... I didn't either growing up outside of DC. But in the Borrego Valley or the Mojave Desert (or Pheonix) its a different situation. How about just using the simple shortage of text books, teachers salary (not enough to afford a 1 br apt in the poorest part of San Diego county), and the rampant reduction in virtually every program there is. This happens ALL over the country, but somehow in your perfect little world, the local schools are over flowing with money and building swimming pools! That's truly amazing. Wonder how they can do that while the rest of the school world is struggling to maintain safe clean conditions all over the country. Go do some research.... oh yeah, I forgot, you never look outside your own backyard when trying to see what's REALLY happening on this planet. Do you really know how those pools are being funded? Why don't you go to some teachers message boards (like this one, for teachers) and see what the people on the front line are really dealing with, before you go assuming every school district in the country is over funded. That's as ignorant as anything I've heard yet.

By the way, thanks much for defending my right to free speech and my opinion. Lovely how we are free to flip flop on liberty, when in one thread you want to strip it away when it suits you, but here in this one, you stand up for your rights... It is truly ala carte with you, isn't it?
 
By the way, I'm tired of this and the other policital debates we've been having. I come to THIS board to learn about aviation issues. Not to wage a philosophical battle of ideologies. So along those lines, I will not respond to your impending reply here. You can have the last word, once again, and I will not engage you in any more of these such debates with you - we just disagree on too many things. But I would ask that in reponse to my offer of cease fire, that you not call out my name or position on other threads, ones which I am not even involved in, as you did on this one. I'd rather not use the ignore function, as I figure you occasionally have aviation related posts that are worthy of my time. But if you will let these type of debates drop, I will also. As usual, you're free to post your opinion on anything you want... just leave me out of it from now on.. mmmkay? thanks.
 
He's some flamebait for you: Condoleeza Rice in 2008, beating Hillary by seven states.

Wouln't that be hilarious if the Republicans provided the first black and/or woman president while the party of the blacks and women failed. If course, if the president was black, he/she would be accused of being an uncle Tom sell out, like when Harry Belafonte accused Colin Powell of being a slave that moved up to the master's house.

Green Bay is the 5th largest school district in WI, and they spend almost the most of any district in NE WI. They spend about $10K per kid/per year. Our friends live in London, and their kids attend a NON-boarding private American school. It costs about $27K. Most of the top boarding schools on the East Coast charge $25K and up. You can even spend that much on preschool.

I live in Florida, and I can't think of a local private school that costs 10K per year. Most go for 6K to 8K, and Catholic schools are much less. Wisconson can't be that much more expensive.

The average teacher is NOT paid enough, believe me

Neither is the average airline pilot. Like its been stated here so many times before, its all supply and demand. By the way, to compare teachers salaries to other salaries, you need to add 20 to 30% due to all the vacation time they get.

Whats ridiculous is that teachers (at least in FLA), need a master's degree in education to teach. They don' t however need to know the subject they teach.
 
But I thought all the state lotteries were supposed to solve all the education funding woes :eek: !!!???
 
Govt supported my A$$! YOu're the one who tastes the govt cheese, not me! LOL I've never been on unemployement or welfare for a second, despite not having a full time job since Bush took over the office. Thanks though for offering to help

I can't tell you that the government supports my a$$, but I CAN tell you that in my state, I'm receiving money that my employer and I pay into the fund, so I am getting money back that was a tax on my EARNINGS. Think of it as a tax refund for furloughees. The reference to government cheese under my avatar is sarcasm.

I have paid into the system for many, many years supporting the basic needs of others, including a good many pilots, I'd wager.


But anyway, I simply have to question the validity of your facts if you assert that public schools have more money than they know what to do with. That's fantastic that some janitor is going to DisneyWorld, how on earth does that disprove Brett Hulls point that public school class rooms all across the country are under funded for the basic simple necessities like paper and text books?

Check my post again, and you will find that I explained that my schools have no such shortages. The public schools don't have more money than they know what to do with, they know EXACTLY what to do with it. Towel, anyone?


But in the Borrego Valley or the Mojave Desert (or Pheonix) its a different situation.

I agree with you. That's why I asked about Arizona. Certainly, that IS a worthy exception.


How about just using the simple shortage of text books, teachers salary (not enough to afford a 1 br apt in the poorest part of San Diego county), and the rampant reduction in virtually every program there is. This happens ALL over the country, but somehow in your perfect little world, the local schools are over flowing with money and building swimming pools! That's truly amazing.

That's why we didn't want to give up our governor, Tom Ridge. Now, we have tax-and-spend Ed Rendell. Lord, help us. Maybe things will improve with the ouster of Gray Davis.


Wonder how they can do that while the rest of the school world is struggling to maintain safe clean conditions all over the country. Go do some research.... oh yeah, I forgot, you never look outside your own backyard when trying to see what's REALLY happening on this planet.

Whenever you are wrong about something, you start to show a nasty streak. My own little world goes as far as China, where my church supports missionaries, along with some 50 other countries. They all have schools. I personally know enough teachers to start my own private school, and if I had the money, I'd do it. I don't need a teachers message board to help me, but thanks for the advice. My private school friends often make LESS than the public school teachers, since the small private school isn't eligible for the school lunch or breakfast programs (which I fund through my taxes) or the other special funding programs, or the teachers union which helps protect substandard teachers from dismissal.


...before you go assuming every school district in the country is over funded. That's as ignorant as anything I've heard yet.

Let me explain to you what ignorance is. Ignorance is being the leading edge of the PC and revisionist history movement, like the NEA. Ignorance is pushing students out the door through social promotion, unable to read their own diploma. Ignorance is what parents experince as schools teach their 13 year old children about the most pleasurable sex positions in a "health" class, without their knowlege. Ignorance is being unaccountable to anyone, and thinking that parents all over the nation will allow this to continue. Ignorance is the idea that the tax base can provide more and more money, while the janitor at my school goes to disney world. Is my friend the vice principal overpaid? Let me tell you a little secret. He said I should run as fast as I can and get my teaching certificate, because this is the best gig on earth, and I was a fool to put up with the pecadillos of aviation when I could do half the work and get every summer off.

He was only half kidding.


Lovely how we are free to flip flop on liberty, when in one thread you want to strip it away when it suits you, but here in this one, you stand up for your rights... It is truly ala carte with you, isn't it?

A la carte? Ha! I knew it! You ARE French!

Just kidding.

You say I want to strip it away when it suits me. That is what is called an opinion. An opinion that you have a right to, but is yet wrong, in that it seeks to mischaracterize my position. I used to do that a LOT when I was a Democrat. It was a marginally effective technique, as most people just let it whizz right by. Not me.

I was making an observation about the necessity for for the strongest action available under our law to deal with the drug emergency in many parts of the country, particularly in the LA and New York areas. Now you may disagree, but this action is provided for and is sometimes necessary. It does not "strip away" rights, it suspends some that allow the poisoning to continue unabated. It reinforces other rights, such as the right of those living in those neighborhoods to be safe in their homes and streets from drive by shootings and assinations, along with the victimization of the weakest among us. In other words, the rights of law abiding citizens are ALWAYS subordinate to the rights of criminals. I disagree with that idea. The residents who work hard have a greater right to safety and happiness than the criminals do to drive about without fear of intervention. Remember, the founders predicated our society on the idea that we are a moral people. Lacking that, we descend into anarchy. Some people think that we should just stand by and do what we have been doing. Clearly another method is being called for. Also as I said, this call will go unanswered by the apologists and the left, who think that this activity is just fine, as long as it isn't in their neighborhood.

But I would ask that in reponse to my offer of cease fire, that you not call out my name or position on other threads, ones which I am not even involved in, as you did on this one. I'd rather not use the ignore function, as I figure you occasionally have aviation related posts that are worthy of my time.

On the other hand, I will stand by everything I say, and you may quote me anywhere and everywhere. I guess I'm not familiar enough with the system used at the NY Times, where people can lift passages and create reality however they like. I'm just too used to doing it the right way. No pun intended. :)

Gee, just when I was enjoying doing something beside faxing resumes to charter companies...
 
Last edited:
But I thought all the state lotteries were supposed to solve all the education funding woes !!!???

In Pennsylvania, our lottery supports some of the needs of senior citizens. Maybe we have more left over for schools? I don't know.
 
Last edited:
***
But I thought all the state lotteries were supposed to solve all the education funding woes !!!???
***

Maybe the poster was referring to the Florida lottery. The politicians took the money from the lottery and simply reduced school expenditures from general state funds by the same amount.

On another note, Costa Rica, which is a third world country by most American's standards, has a 98% literacy rate. Why can't the United States, with far more money, do the same?
 
Probably because we have sent missionaries there for a couple of hundred years.

That, and the fact that the population doesn't have an "entitlement" philosophy. They are homogenous, they are very close to their farming roots, and they have a firm grasp of the work ethic. On top of that, they are friendly, helpful people.

It's a beautiful country to fly over, too.
 
Re: Thank you KickSave

Brett Hull said:


And Hop-Along Bush wants to take more money away from the system. WTF?

[/i]

One of the biggest gripes that true conservatives have against Mr. Bush is that he allowed Teddy Kennedy to write his education bill. Instead of abolishing the Department of Ed, like he sort of promised, he increased spending and Federal Government control. Bush has virtually abandoned any semblence of conservatism in his policy, and yet you libs are still willing to call him names and act like his the great satan. I think that it just proves that the right is stupid. Our politicians never learn that you libs can't be appeased. You will hate and disrespect the right no matter how it becomes your lapdog. You guys are winning, yet you can only call names. If I was a lib, I'd be gloating to no end; but not calling names.

I challenge all of you to go find a public school teacher and ask him/her if they've had to spend any of their own money (of which they make very little) on necessities for their classroom.

I'll answer it for you. It's gonna be 100%.


You may be correct. But your assertion proves only one thing, and that is this: modern public school administration doesn't allocate its funds very well. I send my daughters to a private school for $300/month each. That's about one third of what the local public schools spend on each student. The public school teachers may be short of classroom materials, but that doesn't have anything to do with the total level of public school funding. Here in Texas, it may have something to do with High School football coaches making more than principals. Or it could have something to do with buying $5000 french horns and tubas for band, whatever the reason for the lack of in classroom spending, the lack of such is in no way "proof" that schools are underfunded.

regards,
enigma

BTW, my Mother, Father , ex-wife and one of my friends are/were all public school teachers.
 
Hi!

I wanted to point something out that drastically affects how you view K-12 education. It drastically depends on the suburb you live in. The rich suburbs spend A LOT on their schools, and the poor areas get jack. So, you can have 2 districts relatively close together, with a huge disparity on spending per kid.

These numbers were from 4 years ago in WI:

WI state avg. per pupil $7.5K.
MKE avg $7.4K
GRB (Green Bay) $10K.
Some small, rural districts $3-4K.
The nicest suburbs in the MKE metro area $19K.

I know of one HS in MN that has their own plane, and they fly the Ice Hockey team around the state to competitions, and I know of other districts with huge shortages of basic necesities.

Also, in GRB, the 5th largest district in WI, and one of the "better spending", 100% of the teachers I knew spent their own money on their equipment and supplies. I probably spent about $400 the year I taught there.

We had about 20 Internet computers for the 1500 students and faculty. All of the faculty had email accounts, and we had 1 computer that we all had to share. That was one of my main complaints, is that WI is SO far behind in using computers to improve education. A lot of districts have had a laptop for each kid in Grade3/4+ for a number of years.

If you want to get a better idea of how things are in your local educational system, I would recommend substitute teaching on your days off. You'll get first-hand experience.

Cliff
DTW

PS-One thing that drastically helps private schools keep the cost down, is that most don't have the facilities or personnel to service disabled kids. Public schools have to serve every kid, and the disabled ones are a LOT more expensive-this has been driving the cost/kid overall up, and actually at a lot of districts the average kid has less money spent on them, while the average cost per student continues to rise.
 
quote --We had about 20 Internet computers for the 1500 students and faculty. All of the faculty had email accounts, and we had 1 computer that we all had to share. That was one of my main complaints, is that WI is SO far behind in using computers to improve education. A lot of districts have had a laptop for each kid in Grade3/4+ for a number of years--



See, this is a great example of what people consider to be unneccasary educational spending. When I was growing up in Wisconsin, we had less than the number of computers you cite and NO ONE had their own laptop in class, let alone for each kid. We had 1 computer room with several computers and when you had computer class, that's where you went. And you know what? I graduated with honors from a Big Ten University less 10 years ago. Didn't hurt my education...How is having a laptop for every kid going to improve education? By having an animated dinosaur roar to teach them about ancient history like in the dorky computer ads? Seems to me I was learning basic math and probably grammar in 3rd grade . What is so important in 3rd grade that a student must have a personal laptop in class? If this is what teachers are whining about I must say it has certainly weakened there case in my view. :eek:

BTW, The federal gov't accounts for about 10% of all educational spending because it has always been primarily a state and local responsibility so don't tell me Bush is wrecking education in the US. As far as increase local spending, well my property taxes all already in through the roof as it is. It's so easy to say we need more money for education. I wonder if everyone realizes that when the 'gov't' adds money to the budget it is actually money from you and me, not the gov't.
 
Hi!

You're right that if you consider a laptop "unneccessary", then it is.

There are hundreds of reasons why, if the disctrict can afford it, that kids should have laptops, but they aren't "necessary."

In the 1800s, textbooks and blackboards were "unnecessary." There was actually a big backlash against blackboards in the early 19th century. Many people said they were too expensive-teachers complained they didn't have training on how to use them, or refused to use them, etc. Each kid had a slate board and chalk, and that was all they needed. They graduated and did fine back then.

We could save money by not having any books, chalkboards, overhead projectors, TVs, filmstrips or videos, computers, phones, etc. and people would graduate and go about their business.

However, the world is progressing, and people are using advanced technology in their workplace, so, if we want to prepare our kids to work effectively in the modern world, we should equip them for whatever we think that is appropriate that we can afford.

As a former teacher and a parent, I would like to see my kid's schedule and daily classrooom activities on the internet.

I can see what homework my kid has been assigned, what he has (or has not) turned in, areas that he is outstanding on, areas that need work, field trip schedules, etc., etc. This is only 1 thing that having computers available to each kid and teacher can provide.

I worked with Special Ed kids, and communicating with the parents (usually through the kid) was tough. It would be very helpful for some students for their parents to see what was assigned/turned in/how they did, etc., and if that family can't afford a computer, then they can have access to the internet via their kid's laptop.

A couple of other major things that a laptop per kid can enable:
- Field trips to far away or dangerous places (visit Mt. Everest, go inside a volcano, etc.).
- Kids can take internet classes on subjects that they want but aren't available at their local school (Japanese, computer programming, advanced math, etc., etc.).

Cliff
GRB
 
However, the world is progressing, and people are using advanced technology in their workplace, so, if we want to prepare our kids to work effectively in the modern world, we should equip them for whatever we think that is appropriate that we can afford.

What we are losing sight of is the basic foundation of education, the reading (even books from the 1940's are just fine for this) the writing (with a legible hand?) and arithmetic (as in some basic math skills) as the basic requirements.

We shouldn't be so quick to worship the computer as the salvation of education. Instead, we need to recognize our greatest enemy: cultural intransigence. If you go to a medical school for example, you will find the sons and daughters that come from families and social backgrounds where academic achievement is seen as something positive, and worthy of things like praise and personal best efforts. You will find far fewer med students who overcame the stigma associated with being "smart" in their own neighborhoods, where the right sneakers, the right clothes, or the right gang are the standards of respect and achievement.

Our task is to find what needs to be done to counter the spread of this mindset, as this culture of ignorance has spread well into the suburbs already.

And, unfortunately, a laptop will not fix this problem.
 
atpcliff said:


In WI, which spends relatively a lot and has one of the better systems, they don't spend near what you guys think.

Green Bay is the 5th largest school district in WI, They spend about $10K per kid/per year.

Cliff
DTW

I've been living in Wisconsin for almost 5 years and can't
wait to leave the land of the liberals, Wisconsin has one
of the highest property taxes, sales taxes and income taxes
in the lower 48. I'm sure there are a few good school districts
but my daughter will never find out.

They also have the highest rate of alcoholics per capita.
Domestic abuse goes up 75% when the Packers loose.
And most of the school janitors are paid more than the
teachers and regional pilots. And the federal Gov't just
gave Wisconsin $2 million to due a study on why over
50% of the people living here are over weight.
I could tell them for $2 dollars, too many liberal programs
along with union employees that think they should be
paid twice what there worth.

Not to mention that Wisconsin has had more State and Local
elected officials prosecuted in the last 4 years than any other
state for breaking the law, did I mention that 98% of those
were from the Democratic party.

This is a far cry from what I'd consider one of the better
education or morale lands of opportunity.

Jetsnake
 
Hi!

Yes, there definitely are a lot of problems in WI, probably number one being the acceptance of drinking alchohol in HUGE quantities as well as drinking and driving being OK.

The educational system here is relatively good. It used to be the best (like CA used to be great), but funding has been gradually cut for education in WI and it's losing ground.

I've lived in about 25 places, and WI was one of the more conservative. Overall, I think WI is a good place to live, but I don't like how conservative it is-that's one of the reasons that computers aren't accepted so well in education.

Also, a computer is JUST technology. It can't solve any problems. It just assists people in doing certain things better. We could get around with horse-drawn wagons, but we advanced to autos, which were a big improvement, and we're now working on replacing the internal combustion engine in them, just like we replaced horsepower with I-C engine power.

It doesn't matter if you have a slate and chalk or a computer, it you don't show up for school, you won't learn anything there.

Cliff
GRB`
 

Latest resources

Back
Top