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Nea Endorses John Kerry For President?
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But I thought all the state lotteries were supposed to solve all the education funding woes !!!???
***
Maybe the poster was referring to the Florida lottery. The politicians took the money from the lottery and simply reduced school expenditures from general state funds by the same amount.
On another note, Costa Rica, which is a third world country by most American's standards, has a 98% literacy rate. Why can't the United States, with far more money, do the same?
But I thought all the state lotteries were supposed to solve all the education funding woes !!!???
***
Maybe the poster was referring to the Florida lottery. The politicians took the money from the lottery and simply reduced school expenditures from general state funds by the same amount.
On another note, Costa Rica, which is a third world country by most American's standards, has a 98% literacy rate. Why can't the United States, with far more money, do the same?
Timebuilder
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Probably because we have sent missionaries there for a couple of hundred years.
That, and the fact that the population doesn't have an "entitlement" philosophy. They are homogenous, they are very close to their farming roots, and they have a firm grasp of the work ethic. On top of that, they are friendly, helpful people.
It's a beautiful country to fly over, too.
That, and the fact that the population doesn't have an "entitlement" philosophy. They are homogenous, they are very close to their farming roots, and they have a firm grasp of the work ethic. On top of that, they are friendly, helpful people.
It's a beautiful country to fly over, too.
enigma
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Re: Thank you KickSave
One of the biggest gripes that true conservatives have against Mr. Bush is that he allowed Teddy Kennedy to write his education bill. Instead of abolishing the Department of Ed, like he sort of promised, he increased spending and Federal Government control. Bush has virtually abandoned any semblence of conservatism in his policy, and yet you libs are still willing to call him names and act like his the great satan. I think that it just proves that the right is stupid. Our politicians never learn that you libs can't be appeased. You will hate and disrespect the right no matter how it becomes your lapdog. You guys are winning, yet you can only call names. If I was a lib, I'd be gloating to no end; but not calling names.
You may be correct. But your assertion proves only one thing, and that is this: modern public school administration doesn't allocate its funds very well. I send my daughters to a private school for $300/month each. That's about one third of what the local public schools spend on each student. The public school teachers may be short of classroom materials, but that doesn't have anything to do with the total level of public school funding. Here in Texas, it may have something to do with High School football coaches making more than principals. Or it could have something to do with buying $5000 french horns and tubas for band, whatever the reason for the lack of in classroom spending, the lack of such is in no way "proof" that schools are underfunded.
regards,
enigma
BTW, my Mother, Father , ex-wife and one of my friends are/were all public school teachers.
Brett Hull said:
One of the biggest gripes that true conservatives have against Mr. Bush is that he allowed Teddy Kennedy to write his education bill. Instead of abolishing the Department of Ed, like he sort of promised, he increased spending and Federal Government control. Bush has virtually abandoned any semblence of conservatism in his policy, and yet you libs are still willing to call him names and act like his the great satan. I think that it just proves that the right is stupid. Our politicians never learn that you libs can't be appeased. You will hate and disrespect the right no matter how it becomes your lapdog. You guys are winning, yet you can only call names. If I was a lib, I'd be gloating to no end; but not calling names.
You may be correct. But your assertion proves only one thing, and that is this: modern public school administration doesn't allocate its funds very well. I send my daughters to a private school for $300/month each. That's about one third of what the local public schools spend on each student. The public school teachers may be short of classroom materials, but that doesn't have anything to do with the total level of public school funding. Here in Texas, it may have something to do with High School football coaches making more than principals. Or it could have something to do with buying $5000 french horns and tubas for band, whatever the reason for the lack of in classroom spending, the lack of such is in no way "proof" that schools are underfunded.
regards,
enigma
BTW, my Mother, Father , ex-wife and one of my friends are/were all public school teachers.
atpcliff
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Hi!
I wanted to point something out that drastically affects how you view K-12 education. It drastically depends on the suburb you live in. The rich suburbs spend A LOT on their schools, and the poor areas get jack. So, you can have 2 districts relatively close together, with a huge disparity on spending per kid.
These numbers were from 4 years ago in WI:
WI state avg. per pupil $7.5K.
MKE avg $7.4K
GRB (Green Bay) $10K.
Some small, rural districts $3-4K.
The nicest suburbs in the MKE metro area $19K.
I know of one HS in MN that has their own plane, and they fly the Ice Hockey team around the state to competitions, and I know of other districts with huge shortages of basic necesities.
Also, in GRB, the 5th largest district in WI, and one of the "better spending", 100% of the teachers I knew spent their own money on their equipment and supplies. I probably spent about $400 the year I taught there.
We had about 20 Internet computers for the 1500 students and faculty. All of the faculty had email accounts, and we had 1 computer that we all had to share. That was one of my main complaints, is that WI is SO far behind in using computers to improve education. A lot of districts have had a laptop for each kid in Grade3/4+ for a number of years.
If you want to get a better idea of how things are in your local educational system, I would recommend substitute teaching on your days off. You'll get first-hand experience.
Cliff
DTW
PS-One thing that drastically helps private schools keep the cost down, is that most don't have the facilities or personnel to service disabled kids. Public schools have to serve every kid, and the disabled ones are a LOT more expensive-this has been driving the cost/kid overall up, and actually at a lot of districts the average kid has less money spent on them, while the average cost per student continues to rise.
I wanted to point something out that drastically affects how you view K-12 education. It drastically depends on the suburb you live in. The rich suburbs spend A LOT on their schools, and the poor areas get jack. So, you can have 2 districts relatively close together, with a huge disparity on spending per kid.
These numbers were from 4 years ago in WI:
WI state avg. per pupil $7.5K.
MKE avg $7.4K
GRB (Green Bay) $10K.
Some small, rural districts $3-4K.
The nicest suburbs in the MKE metro area $19K.
I know of one HS in MN that has their own plane, and they fly the Ice Hockey team around the state to competitions, and I know of other districts with huge shortages of basic necesities.
Also, in GRB, the 5th largest district in WI, and one of the "better spending", 100% of the teachers I knew spent their own money on their equipment and supplies. I probably spent about $400 the year I taught there.
We had about 20 Internet computers for the 1500 students and faculty. All of the faculty had email accounts, and we had 1 computer that we all had to share. That was one of my main complaints, is that WI is SO far behind in using computers to improve education. A lot of districts have had a laptop for each kid in Grade3/4+ for a number of years.
If you want to get a better idea of how things are in your local educational system, I would recommend substitute teaching on your days off. You'll get first-hand experience.
Cliff
DTW
PS-One thing that drastically helps private schools keep the cost down, is that most don't have the facilities or personnel to service disabled kids. Public schools have to serve every kid, and the disabled ones are a LOT more expensive-this has been driving the cost/kid overall up, and actually at a lot of districts the average kid has less money spent on them, while the average cost per student continues to rise.
quote --We had about 20 Internet computers for the 1500 students and faculty. All of the faculty had email accounts, and we had 1 computer that we all had to share. That was one of my main complaints, is that WI is SO far behind in using computers to improve education. A lot of districts have had a laptop for each kid in Grade3/4+ for a number of years--
See, this is a great example of what people consider to be unneccasary educational spending. When I was growing up in Wisconsin, we had less than the number of computers you cite and NO ONE had their own laptop in class, let alone for each kid. We had 1 computer room with several computers and when you had computer class, that's where you went. And you know what? I graduated with honors from a Big Ten University less 10 years ago. Didn't hurt my education...How is having a laptop for every kid going to improve education? By having an animated dinosaur roar to teach them about ancient history like in the dorky computer ads? Seems to me I was learning basic math and probably grammar in 3rd grade . What is so important in 3rd grade that a student must have a personal laptop in class? If this is what teachers are whining about I must say it has certainly weakened there case in my view.
BTW, The federal gov't accounts for about 10% of all educational spending because it has always been primarily a state and local responsibility so don't tell me Bush is wrecking education in the US. As far as increase local spending, well my property taxes all already in through the roof as it is. It's so easy to say we need more money for education. I wonder if everyone realizes that when the 'gov't' adds money to the budget it is actually money from you and me, not the gov't.
See, this is a great example of what people consider to be unneccasary educational spending. When I was growing up in Wisconsin, we had less than the number of computers you cite and NO ONE had their own laptop in class, let alone for each kid. We had 1 computer room with several computers and when you had computer class, that's where you went. And you know what? I graduated with honors from a Big Ten University less 10 years ago. Didn't hurt my education...How is having a laptop for every kid going to improve education? By having an animated dinosaur roar to teach them about ancient history like in the dorky computer ads? Seems to me I was learning basic math and probably grammar in 3rd grade . What is so important in 3rd grade that a student must have a personal laptop in class? If this is what teachers are whining about I must say it has certainly weakened there case in my view.
BTW, The federal gov't accounts for about 10% of all educational spending because it has always been primarily a state and local responsibility so don't tell me Bush is wrecking education in the US. As far as increase local spending, well my property taxes all already in through the roof as it is. It's so easy to say we need more money for education. I wonder if everyone realizes that when the 'gov't' adds money to the budget it is actually money from you and me, not the gov't.
atpcliff
Well-known member
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- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 4,260
Hi!
You're right that if you consider a laptop "unneccessary", then it is.
There are hundreds of reasons why, if the disctrict can afford it, that kids should have laptops, but they aren't "necessary."
In the 1800s, textbooks and blackboards were "unnecessary." There was actually a big backlash against blackboards in the early 19th century. Many people said they were too expensive-teachers complained they didn't have training on how to use them, or refused to use them, etc. Each kid had a slate board and chalk, and that was all they needed. They graduated and did fine back then.
We could save money by not having any books, chalkboards, overhead projectors, TVs, filmstrips or videos, computers, phones, etc. and people would graduate and go about their business.
However, the world is progressing, and people are using advanced technology in their workplace, so, if we want to prepare our kids to work effectively in the modern world, we should equip them for whatever we think that is appropriate that we can afford.
As a former teacher and a parent, I would like to see my kid's schedule and daily classrooom activities on the internet.
I can see what homework my kid has been assigned, what he has (or has not) turned in, areas that he is outstanding on, areas that need work, field trip schedules, etc., etc. This is only 1 thing that having computers available to each kid and teacher can provide.
I worked with Special Ed kids, and communicating with the parents (usually through the kid) was tough. It would be very helpful for some students for their parents to see what was assigned/turned in/how they did, etc., and if that family can't afford a computer, then they can have access to the internet via their kid's laptop.
A couple of other major things that a laptop per kid can enable:
- Field trips to far away or dangerous places (visit Mt. Everest, go inside a volcano, etc.).
- Kids can take internet classes on subjects that they want but aren't available at their local school (Japanese, computer programming, advanced math, etc., etc.).
Cliff
GRB
You're right that if you consider a laptop "unneccessary", then it is.
There are hundreds of reasons why, if the disctrict can afford it, that kids should have laptops, but they aren't "necessary."
In the 1800s, textbooks and blackboards were "unnecessary." There was actually a big backlash against blackboards in the early 19th century. Many people said they were too expensive-teachers complained they didn't have training on how to use them, or refused to use them, etc. Each kid had a slate board and chalk, and that was all they needed. They graduated and did fine back then.
We could save money by not having any books, chalkboards, overhead projectors, TVs, filmstrips or videos, computers, phones, etc. and people would graduate and go about their business.
However, the world is progressing, and people are using advanced technology in their workplace, so, if we want to prepare our kids to work effectively in the modern world, we should equip them for whatever we think that is appropriate that we can afford.
As a former teacher and a parent, I would like to see my kid's schedule and daily classrooom activities on the internet.
I can see what homework my kid has been assigned, what he has (or has not) turned in, areas that he is outstanding on, areas that need work, field trip schedules, etc., etc. This is only 1 thing that having computers available to each kid and teacher can provide.
I worked with Special Ed kids, and communicating with the parents (usually through the kid) was tough. It would be very helpful for some students for their parents to see what was assigned/turned in/how they did, etc., and if that family can't afford a computer, then they can have access to the internet via their kid's laptop.
A couple of other major things that a laptop per kid can enable:
- Field trips to far away or dangerous places (visit Mt. Everest, go inside a volcano, etc.).
- Kids can take internet classes on subjects that they want but aren't available at their local school (Japanese, computer programming, advanced math, etc., etc.).
Cliff
GRB
Timebuilder
Entrepreneur
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What we are losing sight of is the basic foundation of education, the reading (even books from the 1940's are just fine for this) the writing (with a legible hand?) and arithmetic (as in some basic math skills) as the basic requirements.
We shouldn't be so quick to worship the computer as the salvation of education. Instead, we need to recognize our greatest enemy: cultural intransigence. If you go to a medical school for example, you will find the sons and daughters that come from families and social backgrounds where academic achievement is seen as something positive, and worthy of things like praise and personal best efforts. You will find far fewer med students who overcame the stigma associated with being "smart" in their own neighborhoods, where the right sneakers, the right clothes, or the right gang are the standards of respect and achievement.
Our task is to find what needs to be done to counter the spread of this mindset, as this culture of ignorance has spread well into the suburbs already.
And, unfortunately, a laptop will not fix this problem.
atpcliff said:
I've been living in Wisconsin for almost 5 years and can't
wait to leave the land of the liberals, Wisconsin has one
of the highest property taxes, sales taxes and income taxes
in the lower 48. I'm sure there are a few good school districts
but my daughter will never find out.
They also have the highest rate of alcoholics per capita.
Domestic abuse goes up 75% when the Packers loose.
And most of the school janitors are paid more than the
teachers and regional pilots. And the federal Gov't just
gave Wisconsin $2 million to due a study on why over
50% of the people living here are over weight.
I could tell them for $2 dollars, too many liberal programs
along with union employees that think they should be
paid twice what there worth.
Not to mention that Wisconsin has had more State and Local
elected officials prosecuted in the last 4 years than any other
state for breaking the law, did I mention that 98% of those
were from the Democratic party.
This is a far cry from what I'd consider one of the better
education or morale lands of opportunity.
Jetsnake
atpcliff
Well-known member
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- Posts
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Hi!
Yes, there definitely are a lot of problems in WI, probably number one being the acceptance of drinking alchohol in HUGE quantities as well as drinking and driving being OK.
The educational system here is relatively good. It used to be the best (like CA used to be great), but funding has been gradually cut for education in WI and it's losing ground.
I've lived in about 25 places, and WI was one of the more conservative. Overall, I think WI is a good place to live, but I don't like how conservative it is-that's one of the reasons that computers aren't accepted so well in education.
Also, a computer is JUST technology. It can't solve any problems. It just assists people in doing certain things better. We could get around with horse-drawn wagons, but we advanced to autos, which were a big improvement, and we're now working on replacing the internal combustion engine in them, just like we replaced horsepower with I-C engine power.
It doesn't matter if you have a slate and chalk or a computer, it you don't show up for school, you won't learn anything there.
Cliff
GRB`
Yes, there definitely are a lot of problems in WI, probably number one being the acceptance of drinking alchohol in HUGE quantities as well as drinking and driving being OK.
The educational system here is relatively good. It used to be the best (like CA used to be great), but funding has been gradually cut for education in WI and it's losing ground.
I've lived in about 25 places, and WI was one of the more conservative. Overall, I think WI is a good place to live, but I don't like how conservative it is-that's one of the reasons that computers aren't accepted so well in education.
Also, a computer is JUST technology. It can't solve any problems. It just assists people in doing certain things better. We could get around with horse-drawn wagons, but we advanced to autos, which were a big improvement, and we're now working on replacing the internal combustion engine in them, just like we replaced horsepower with I-C engine power.
It doesn't matter if you have a slate and chalk or a computer, it you don't show up for school, you won't learn anything there.
Cliff
GRB`
Timebuilder
Entrepreneur
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Actually, this is the deepest desire of an entire wing of the Democrat party, to return us to using bicycles and horses. The entire environmental movement is at war with the internal combustion engine, not to mention the megawatts of electricity used everyday to power computers. Who will develop and profit from the replacement of the IC engine? That's right, the Big Oil Companies. An interesting dichotomy, to be certain.
Whether we talk about learning or just showing up at school, it has to start with an interest in what is being taught. If there is no cultural support for that idea, no clear reward among peers for achievement, then no amount of money or computers will help.
Last edited:
atpcliff said:
There are several problems with drinking and driving in
Wisconsin, one that I can think of off the top my thinking
head would be when 2 Skyway pilots and another pilot
were killed while going to supper early this year.
You don't here about how the guy that killed these guys
is attempting to plea bargain for only 15 years in the
(DEMOCRACTIC) Milwaukee Journal.
Wisconsin is far from conservative, as far as computers,
I think there great, but what happened to children learning
to count in there heads, what a concept. The education system
in Wisconsin needs a serious overhaul, there way past
there last TBO.
I can't ever remember in my 40 years as California being
a top notch school, except for UCLA with there men's
gymnastics program; And that was cancelled because of
Title IV, another program sponsored by Sen. Kerry and
Wisconsin Senator Kohl.(BOTH DEMOCRACTS)
I'm still waiting for this state(WI) to tax people for pissing in
the wind, it seems rather popular at Packer games.
And I hope they do, I'd be happy to help doing this...
Down wind of course...
Jetsnake
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surfnole said:
It hasn't changed since the 80's, except the
state of Wisconsin taxes more on Food, Gas (to
improve the roads...WHATEVER...) and Cocktails.
The biggest thing I've seen since I moved here is the
size of the waist line.
My first night out at a bar after moving from AZ.
Was Sweet $esus; I honestly didn't know women
didn't care about there weight in WI like they do.
Now I understand why everyone drinks, it's a non
stop FISH FRY...
I'm sure some of the ladies look great, after you peel
through about 5-6 layers of cottage cheese.
But I've never been one for chewing off my arm in
the whee hours of the morning attempting to get home.
They do have good looking women in Wisconsin,
1 in 10 maybe, but there not from Wisconsin...
Jetsnake
I find it laughable that you consider Wisconsin 'one of the more conservative' states. Do you know that in the city of Madison, NOT ONE Republican ran for Mayor because they know the city is so danm liberal they have no shot. Thank god for the rural areas of the state and the suburbs or this entire state would be in the hand of the Dems.
Secondly to say that the reason computers aren't so 'accepted' in Wisconsin is because of conservatives is also laughable. Yes, they may oppose the 1 computer for every student quota but to say they haven't accepted computers is ludicrous.
Third, yes, a laptop per child is 'nice to have' but not 'need to have'. Want to 'visit' a far away or dangerous class, how about gathering around the TV set in the class and view it instead of paying tens of thousands on laptops.
If you had a legitimate case of funding not being there for essential supplies like books, chalk, some computer equipment I would have much more sympathy for the teachers unions. Instead they SAY they have no money for this stuff to get the public's sympathy but they end up wasting it on excesses like this. Why not just buy every kid a car while you're at it, after all we could get around by walking to school like in the 'olden days' but now we have improved and should accept that kids would be much better off if they we given cars to get to school, how about a Mercedes?
You say the funding for education has been cut in Wisconsin. Is this one of those 'cuts' where the funding actually goes UP but the rate of increase is slightly lower than the previous year? Yet another slimy tactic of the democrats over the years.
Finally, I wonder if you own your own house? Maybe you do, but if you don't you will have a big surprise when you see your property taxes roll in each year-- in the thousands. All money for the schools comes from you and I in the form of taxes. Wisconsin in in the top 5 most taxed states so I think it is quite appropriate for people to say ENOUGH. Yes laptops may be nice, but I have a house and car to pay for and kids to raise. I, the taxpayer, come first sometimes!!!
Secondly to say that the reason computers aren't so 'accepted' in Wisconsin is because of conservatives is also laughable. Yes, they may oppose the 1 computer for every student quota but to say they haven't accepted computers is ludicrous.
Third, yes, a laptop per child is 'nice to have' but not 'need to have'. Want to 'visit' a far away or dangerous class, how about gathering around the TV set in the class and view it instead of paying tens of thousands on laptops.
If you had a legitimate case of funding not being there for essential supplies like books, chalk, some computer equipment I would have much more sympathy for the teachers unions. Instead they SAY they have no money for this stuff to get the public's sympathy but they end up wasting it on excesses like this. Why not just buy every kid a car while you're at it, after all we could get around by walking to school like in the 'olden days' but now we have improved and should accept that kids would be much better off if they we given cars to get to school, how about a Mercedes?
You say the funding for education has been cut in Wisconsin. Is this one of those 'cuts' where the funding actually goes UP but the rate of increase is slightly lower than the previous year? Yet another slimy tactic of the democrats over the years.
Finally, I wonder if you own your own house? Maybe you do, but if you don't you will have a big surprise when you see your property taxes roll in each year-- in the thousands. All money for the schools comes from you and I in the form of taxes. Wisconsin in in the top 5 most taxed states so I think it is quite appropriate for people to say ENOUGH. Yes laptops may be nice, but I have a house and car to pay for and kids to raise. I, the taxpayer, come first sometimes!!!
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