NBAA SMS Class

[wrxpilot]

Another thing to watch out for during the auditing process is hiring an auditor that also (conveniently enough) runs an aircraft management business. At some point they will end up face to face with your Boss' Boss or your CEO to report their findings. That's when you run the risk of them telling the boss how they could do it more cost effectively by combining your aircraft on their insurance, negotiating fuel purchases, making the crews independent contractors, and putting the aircraft on their 135 for some charter revenue. We all know that it's BS, but where do you think these "consultants" come from?

We just dealt with that EXACT situation in our little flight dept with an auditor... Within five minutes of meeting the auditor, he started asking me non-pertinent questions about where the crew lived (two of them commute to the airplane). He then said he was available as a Captain - WTF? Dude, you are here to do an audit for the bank! Not try to weasel your way into a job.

Later, he told the chief pilot that he wanted to talk to the owner about our service contract and aircraft management. The CP essentially told him to eff himself, and we've reported him to the bank. Very unprofessional...

The funny part is that he was a recently retired airline pilot from United. I try not to view these retired airline pilots in a bad light with regards to corporate ops, but crap like this makes you wonder.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I say again, ask the NASCAR guys if having an operable SMS would have prevented the mishap.

We are a society of rules and procedures. Corporate Aviation is the last bastion of aviation with few of those. It's always interesting to fly w the folks who think they dont need them. I submit again, they are the very ones who need them the most.

As SMS is not foolproof. It still doesnt take the human out of the equation. It provides the human rules and guidelines under which to operate. It provides humans with a means of identifying problems and correcting issues so that the next human doesnt have to relive the same risk.

All 121 operations have safety programs. All 135 operators have safety programs. As 91 operators we have no dispatchers, no company weather folks, most often on our own. But we are better than all of those guys? We don't need what they need?

I say again, it's exactly the folks who think they are above the SMS, who think it's crap, who need it the most.

Its sounds to me, again, like you are trying to take people with the lowest regards for rules and standards and assuming they will change their ways with a 5K manual on the shelf.

Sorry....cant fix stupid, no matter who they work for.

 

[bbwest]

I couldn't agree more with the last comment. If stupid doesnt realize his limitations how do you identify his issue up the chain? The word of mouth stuff has little to no accountability. An SMS with a function hazard identification program and or an anonymous hazard identification program forces the issue to be dealt with.

A truly functional safety program forces the stupid issue to be dealt with.

Bombardier Safety Standown and Tony Kern's last book had some great stuff on the stupid's among us.

WRXpilot's comments about the auditor looking for a job is exactly what's great about this forum. The retired United auditor looking for a job needs to be permanantly retired. We have an audit coming up. No airline guys or former airline guys welcome. They dont live in our world. What would a guy like that really know about business aviation outside of the cockpit door? Thanks for IDing someone like that!

 

[FO4life]

+1 Thank YOU. Even if you run the SMS for a captain before a flight doesn't mean he/she will not ball it up in flames at the end!

 

[bbwest]

SMS a joke? Really?

Thanks for that!

The entire SMS idea is a joke....the only ones who think otherwise are all the newly minted "consulatants" that will come in and tell you how much it will benefit your department.

Instead of hiring smart people, paying them well, and insisting they operate by industry accepted guidelines you now need a "SMS"

So G-200 and the clowns like him think they are smarter than Dr Tony Kern, Ed Bolen, John Sheehan and a hundred other leaders out there in business aviation.

Safety programs work - period. So Southwest, Delta, United, Net Jets, Pepsico, Home Depot, Exxon, and nearly every quality flight department out there - G200 says they are all wrong and he is right? If you worked in my flight dept and spouted nonsense like that I'd ask you to seek employment elsewhere.

 

[BoilerUP]

The concept of SMS is good - the execution of SMS, however, has been piss-poor.

There's absolutely nothing an SMS offers in terms of operational risk mitigation that routine, frank, open discussions between department pilots & department management cannot achieve. The "its the same thing you're already doing, just documented" chorus rings a bit hollow to some, because if we're already operating using industry best practices and have an unblemished safety record doing what we've been doing for years, what's the benefit of putting it on paper? What and where is the need, other than acheiving regulatory compliance?

You can have the world's bestest risk matrix and most thorough SMS manual and it'll do absolutely nothing to address pilot performance issues that are the primary driver of incidents/accidents...like SWA overruning at MDW (why did the PIC steer toward the grass and not the EMAS?), Delta landing on a taxiway, NWA playing on laptops and overflying their destination, etc.

Additionally, the bestest risk matrix & SMS manual in the world won't do anything for a department unless an operation, from the lowest/most junior flight department employee to the CEO of the corporation, buys into a sea change in culture that an SMS requires in order to truly be effective.

Otherwise, its little more than another manual on the shelf and maybe a "formal" step in the preflight process, consuming more time & resources than the same risk analysis most professional pilots do anyway (if only out of self-preservation).

You don't need to have an Safety Management System to operate a safe, professional flight department - thousands of departments prove this on a daily basis. Could it improve an operation that's already good? Perhaps...but its not necessary. And anybody who claims it is likely has an economic stake in selling that perspective.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

So G-200 and the clowns like him think they are smarter than Dr Tony Kern, Ed Bolen, John Sheehan and a hundred other leaders out there in business aviation.

Safety programs work - period. So Southwest, Delta, United, Net Jets, Pepsico, Home Depot, Exxon, and nearly every quality flight department out there - G200 says they are all wrong and he is right? If you worked in my flight dept and spouted nonsense like that I'd ask you to seek employment elsewhere.

If those are your ideas of industry leaders, you are right, I have no desire to work in YOUR flight department...no worries there.

You see, amazingly enough, we were safe long before ISBAO gave us a certificate. Shocking huh? Maybe it's because we hire good, experienced people, treat and pay them well, and expect them to act like professionals every single time they come to work? We have managers with spines. I guess that concept was lost in favor of needing a risk analysis of something (everything?) or maybe yet another Safety Committee meeting? or a YES MAN manager looking for another pat on the head?

Don't kid yourself, the ones who fall into leadership roles and department manager roles in this business are sometimes the least qualified, sackless, socially challenged people you will meet. A shiny SMS on the shelf and a $10,000 plaque in the hall makes up for mediocre talent at plenty of departments. Others are top notch, and sure they have an SMS. Just another item checked off to help the department be as good as it can be.....but quality and a SMS have very little (if anything) to do with each other.

I don't care to see the plaques and the manuals, all I need to do is take a good look at the guy in charge of a department and see how he treats his people, stands up for his people, and what kind of respect he gets when he turns his back. That will tell me everything I need to know (good or bad, SMS or not) Everyone knows the rules, everyone has the manuals, now show me how they are executed.

Again, LMAO at quality department = SMS....Boiler Up is right., you must be selling the crap like so many others out there.

 

[Godfather]

I agree with Boiler UP and G200!

It's funny that this same discussion came up with my Flight Dept. Manager the other day. He asked if I was interested in being the Safety Guru/SMS Manager? He was pretty serious as he is trying to take a little off of his responsibility plate. He's our Safety guy for now but this SMS and Safety/Risk Management Stuff is getting to be too much for one guy to handle. Guess, I'll add Safety man/SMS Manager to my resume. I really have no Safety experience except as a flight crew member but you always have to crawl before walking.

With this in mind, I have some questions for anyone that would like to take a stab at this.

1. Is the NBAA the only ones doing the training/certification for US operators?

2. Does the NBAA course satisfy the JAA and other regulatory agencies?

3. How often do SMS Programs required audits?

4. How much more $$$ should a Safety Man make if he also flies? How much if he is just the Manager with no additional duties or responsibilities?

5. How much more $$$ will be required to maintain the SMS compliance and what are the typical annual ops costs with SMS?

either post here or PM me. thanks

 

[Gulfstream 200]

1. Is the NBAA the only ones doing the training/certification for US operators?

2. Does the NBAA course satisfy the JAA and other regulatory agencies?

3. How often do SMS Programs required audits?

4. How much more $$$ should a Safety Man make if he also flies? How much if he is just the Manager with no additional duties or responsibilities?

5. How much more $$$ will be required to maintain the SMS compliance and what are the typical annual ops costs with SMS?

either post here or PM me. thanks

1/2 - You don't need to pay for SMS training. Get the ISBAO standard and create your own SMS based on what you already do, its pretty easy...or pay someone to do it all if you don't have time or don't have an industry typical ops manual, etc. I cant see the benefit to a small department doing outside SMS "training" We have a training schedule and in it is periodic internal SMS training/review. You want to get ISBAO certified/registered to satisfy any regulatory agencies (still not clear IMO)

3. Every 2 years (Stage I,II,III?)

4. I suspect that is entirely up to you to negotiate, but it also sounds like you just added another title and little/no extra pay, LOL.

5. There are no annual ops costs that I can think of with a SMS? Its honestly nothing different than you are likely doing right now. I found its value in that it forced us to get a little more organized. In just about every instance we already met or exceeded the "standards" - as I bet most decent outfits do. All you would need to budget in is your audits or what you may pay someone to manage it (I suspect that may be you) Prices vary widely on audits.

 

[Godfather]

Thanks G200. We'll see what happens...wish me luck!

FYI, We have a SMS in play, but not yet IBAC certified which is the next step. I guess that is where the audits come in.

One more question on the audits. Which outside audit firm to use? Wyvern, FSI, SH&E or just work with IBAC itself. IBAC's website with the eLearning Course is so much easier to use and educate yourself with IMO.

 

[G4G5]

Here's the deal with the SMS: It needs to be IBAC certified.

The issue is the FAA has decided not to get involved with the approval process so you have no one to turn to with in the FAA for guidance. This only becomes an issue IF you fly internationally. If your flying is domestic only then you have no SMS requirements to meet.

This is their latest take on the subject:
"Additionally, operators of large and turbojet airplanes that fly internationally have a requirement to establish an SMS."

http://www.dca.gov.bm/Lists/Announcements/Attachments/98/FAA InFo SMS and Annex 6 Part 2.pdf

If you fly internationally you need to follow ICAO Annex rules which state that you need to abide by the rules of the nation in which you are flying.

"§ 91.703, operators are responsible for compliance with foreign countries’ flight rules and international standards when operating outside of the United States."

If that country wants an SMS, then it has to be an approved SMS, and since the FAA does not approve SMS's you really only have two choices.

Choice one is IBAC, they have the only ICAO recognized SMS approval process. This is the reason why many folks are getting the ISBAO (branch of ICAO) approved manual because a chapter within the manual is dedicated to your companies SMS. Get ISBAO approval and get international SMS approval. Or you could send in your SMS to IBAC and ask for approval.

Choice two is to go directly to the nation in which you plan to travel and have them approve your SMS manual. You can send your flight ops manual directly to the French or Canadian or Bermudian versions of the FAA for approval.

The Bermudian Department of Civil Aviation issued this letter of Guidance on the topic.

http://www.airsynapsis.com/Services/IS-BAO/Bermuda DCA Article 85 Summer Update.pdf

Take a close look at page 3:

The First paragraph explains the ISBAO process is the preferred method.

In the second paragraph they are very clear that they do not want to get involved with approving your manual. I spoke with them directly, due to lack of adequate staffing they have set the price so outrageously high that they are forcing you to use the ISBAO/IBAC process.

But if you really want yours approved they will except your $1500 a day for 10 days to go over and review your manual. Then another $1500 a day, plus $750 a day for travel, plus all expenses to come out to your facility and conduct the audit.

Now when you start to consider the fact that this is just how one country plans on dealing with the SMS issue, then it's quite clear that creating your own internal manual and dealing with the independent certification process to comply with the ICAO Annex requirements is not the way to go.

Now if the FAA had a set they could have applied for relief from the ICAO annex and this would not have become an issue but as we all have seen over the past 10+ years the FAA is now just a branch of EASA. The Europeans are driving the bus get on or get run over.

 

[AA717driver]

So G-200 and the clowns like him think they are smarter than Dr Tony Kern, Ed Bolen, John Sheehan and a hundred other leaders out there in business aviation.

Safety programs work - period. So Southwest, Delta, United, Net Jets, Pepsico, Home Depot, Exxon, and nearly every quality flight department out there - G200 says they are all wrong and he is right? If you worked in my flight dept and spouted nonsense like that I'd ask you to seek employment elsewhere.

Put me in the category of "clown". As I've said before, this is simply an effort to 'legislate' safety while neglecting to foster good piloting skills and get rid of those with bad piloting skills. You cannot codify common sense. You cannot be a good, safe pilot without common sense. This is just another attempt to pound the square peg into the round hole.

AND, most (if not all) of these types of programs are generated by denizens of training departments who want a project to work on that will keep them out of the cockpit as long as possible. In the airlines, in particular, the bulk of those in training and management are simply pilots who don't want to fly. They have to justify their jobs so they come up with programs like this.

And, once those types have retired, they go to work for the FAA or some other acronymed organization and lobby to get "their" program mandated by the government.

Never trust a Flight Attendant with a chipped tooth or a pilot with a Masters in Aviation Management.

TC

ETA: Having had more stupid, do-nothing programs foisted on me than pay raises in my career, I'm over this.

 

[AA717driver]

The funny part is that he was a recently retired airline pilot from United. I try not to view these retired airline pilots in a bad light with regards to corporate ops, but crap like this makes you wonder.

Unfortunately, I'm afraid it's going to get worse with all the age 65 retirees shuffling out the door in the next couple of years.

They hear about my experiences while furloughed and their eyes light up. Fortunately, the cost of admission usually stops them in their tracks...

TC