I Just wanted to give a heads up for anyone who wishes to spend $1500 on any upcomimg NBAA SMS class. I attended the class in HOU last week along with many other well known corporate operators and we were all very disappointed with the 3 day class. It was Not worth the money so make sure you do your homework and are well briefed before attending.
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NBAA SMS Class
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Gulfstream 200
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Thanks for that!
The entire SMS idea is a joke....the only ones who think otherwise are all the newly minted "consulatants" that will come in and tell you how much it will benefit your department.
Instead of hiring smart people, paying them well, and insisting they operate by industry accepted guidelines you now need a "SMS"
TransMach
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Thanks for that!
The entire SMS idea is a joke....the only ones who think otherwise are all the newly minted "consulatants" that will come in and tell you how much it will benefit your department.
Instead of hiring smart people, paying them well, and insisting they operate by industry accepted guidelines you now need a "SMS"
Yup, what he said X2 ...
TransMach
Brett Hull
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Gulfstream 200
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Problem with real jobs is they are Monday-Friday. I'm just not ready for that just yet...
Oh I know SMS/ISBAO/EUETS etc is coming, I just think its a huge joke. We will buy whatever SMS etc we need to comply and throw it on the shelf. Its just another budget item.
As far as NBAAs role, just ask about the need for an SMS on their pathetic Airmail system and watch how many people respond with how important SMS is...in fact, they are mostly experts who will happily come in and "manage" and "consult" you on an SMS! - just send them an email!...ever ask what is required to be an ISBAO/SMS "certified" auditor? a 12hr class?
No thanks...we will continue to run a very safe and efficient operation by hiring good people. Imagine that.
I have witnessed big department SMS and all the laughable (painful?) time it consumes. It's also comical to hear the kool aid drinkers try and explain why its the future and we need to embrace it...Does some one (Chief Pilot/DO?) have to deal with what is required and check the boxes? sure...but lets not kid ourselves into thinking this is a huge Revelation.
Of course you do whatever your boss wants to check this box, but the question still remains.....WHY?
PC12Cowboy
Berry Beery Bad
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SMS is Safety Management System
Here's what the issue is:
"The International Civil Aviation Organization Standards found in Annex 6, Part 2 specify that a SMS requirement be incorporated into national safety regulations for operators of non-commercial aircraft over 12,500 pounds maximum takeoff weight or turbojet powered aircraft. The compliance date for these standards is November 2010. Annex 6 Part 1 of the ICAO Standards required compliance beginning on January 1, 2009 for commercial operators."
I went to the SMS class at TEB last month and here's what I got out of it.
The Europeans are all over the place. Easa is not going to take over until 2012, so until then each country's regulations apply. Effective 11/18/2010, the French could make it mandatory and do a ramp/SAFA check and hold you on the ground until you get one. The UK may not, it's up until the individual country until EASA takes over. Bottom line is it's coming so why wait to get one?
The US has said that it will wait until 2013 until we decide what to do, no surprise here. IMHO, we will wait until EASA has told us what to do. The FAA has no money and the Europeans are driving the bus and they are all about job creation whether it be ISBAO and SMS audits or EUETS fee's.
The Canadians came out last week and said that they won't require an SMS for foreign registered aircraft. The Bermudians already require it for aircraft registered in Bermuda so as of 11/2010, IMHO they will want one for foreign operators too.
We are in a gray area. If you never leave the USA then don't worry about until 2013. If you travel internationally then, it depends upon the country the you are visiting but as of November any ICAO registered country has the right to enforce an SMS.
If you try to do it on your own then who do you get to approve it?
Problem is that the FAA has NO real guidance on what to do (they don't care because they have told the world we will get to it in 2013). So your local FSDO can not approve it.
My suggestion is to purchase the ISBAO SMS manual and fill in the blanks. It's ICAO approved and should be accepted by all ICAO countries. Then either throw it up on the shelve or start playing the big flt dept game.
Here's what the issue is:
"The International Civil Aviation Organization Standards found in Annex 6, Part 2 specify that a SMS requirement be incorporated into national safety regulations for operators of non-commercial aircraft over 12,500 pounds maximum takeoff weight or turbojet powered aircraft. The compliance date for these standards is November 2010. Annex 6 Part 1 of the ICAO Standards required compliance beginning on January 1, 2009 for commercial operators."
I went to the SMS class at TEB last month and here's what I got out of it.
The Europeans are all over the place. Easa is not going to take over until 2012, so until then each country's regulations apply. Effective 11/18/2010, the French could make it mandatory and do a ramp/SAFA check and hold you on the ground until you get one. The UK may not, it's up until the individual country until EASA takes over. Bottom line is it's coming so why wait to get one?
The US has said that it will wait until 2013 until we decide what to do, no surprise here. IMHO, we will wait until EASA has told us what to do. The FAA has no money and the Europeans are driving the bus and they are all about job creation whether it be ISBAO and SMS audits or EUETS fee's.
The Canadians came out last week and said that they won't require an SMS for foreign registered aircraft. The Bermudians already require it for aircraft registered in Bermuda so as of 11/2010, IMHO they will want one for foreign operators too.
We are in a gray area. If you never leave the USA then don't worry about until 2013. If you travel internationally then, it depends upon the country the you are visiting but as of November any ICAO registered country has the right to enforce an SMS.
If you try to do it on your own then who do you get to approve it?
Problem is that the FAA has NO real guidance on what to do (they don't care because they have told the world we will get to it in 2013). So your local FSDO can not approve it.
My suggestion is to purchase the ISBAO SMS manual and fill in the blanks. It's ICAO approved and should be accepted by all ICAO countries. Then either throw it up on the shelve or start playing the big flt dept game.
PC12Cowboy
Berry Beery Bad
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Another thing to watch out for during the auditing process is hiring an auditor that also (conveniently enough) runs an aircraft management business. At some point they will end up face to face with your Boss' Boss or your CEO to report their findings. That's when you run the risk of them telling the boss how they could do it more cost effectively by combining your aircraft on their insurance, negotiating fuel purchases, making the crews independent contractors, and putting the aircraft on their 135 for some charter revenue. We all know that it's BS, but where do you think these "consultants" come from?
Gulfstream 200
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agree 100%.
"auditors" and "consultants".....often industry flunkies with NO interest in your well being.
If I get one more phone call from some scumbag 135 outfit who will "manage" our aircraft for free I might lose it!!
Don't confuse having a Safety Management System with using a Safety Management System. Having one doesn't make anyone safer and I think requiring a system where a system is not wanted won't make operations any safer.
There were plenty of FARs and industry accepted procedures and guidelines already in existence that would have prevented the NASCAR accident, if only they were followed. I don't think a fancy manual would have prevented the decision making process in motion before this accident. My humble opinion.
I just wish I was smart enough to invent a "standard" ie. IS-BAO that I could charge people a hefty fee to implement.
Gulfstream 200
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Ah yes....an SMS would have prevented this, huh?
As stated above, how about following FARs and standard industry practices? How about running a department run by SOPs that are accepted/expected right up to the top.
Many have been doing this long before SMS, some never have and never will - SMS or not.
Do a handful of wannabe manager pilots spending 6 months and thousands of dollars putting together some ISBAO manuals make you feel safe? We will all play the game, but lets not kid ourselves into thinking an SMS will do anything for the average small flight department.
At the end of the day It's the quality, well paid people you have making the decisions in the cockpit and who are backed by managers with spines that make an operation run safe, not a fancy certificate on the wall that gets prepped by some "consultant" and dusted off by some office clown.
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Which is exactly what this industry is desperately short of and why we're at this point now. Because a bunch of ninnies have been promoted to chief pilot and don't want to risk anything by "rocking the boat" by ever saying no to the big guy....who are backed by managers with spines....
Someone said the Tim Horton's global express accident in Canada would not have happened if they had a SMS in place. Really? They needed a matrix to tell them that ducking below the papi and landing a global on a 4800' contaminated runway was a bad idea?
I say again, ask the NASCAR guys if having an operable SMS would have prevented the mishap.
We are a society of rules and procedures. Corporate Aviation is the last bastion of aviation with few of those. It's always interesting to fly w the folks who think they dont need them. I submit again, they are the very ones who need them the most.
As SMS is not foolproof. It still doesnt take the human out of the equation. It provides the human rules and guidelines under which to operate. It provides humans with a means of identifying problems and correcting issues so that the next human doesnt have to relive the same risk.
All 121 operations have safety programs. All 135 operators have safety programs. As 91 operators we have no dispatchers, no company weather folks, most often on our own. But we are better than all of those guys? We don't need what they need?
I say again, it's exactly the folks who think they are above the SMS, who think it's crap, who need it the most.
We are a society of rules and procedures. Corporate Aviation is the last bastion of aviation with few of those. It's always interesting to fly w the folks who think they dont need them. I submit again, they are the very ones who need them the most.
As SMS is not foolproof. It still doesnt take the human out of the equation. It provides the human rules and guidelines under which to operate. It provides humans with a means of identifying problems and correcting issues so that the next human doesnt have to relive the same risk.
All 121 operations have safety programs. All 135 operators have safety programs. As 91 operators we have no dispatchers, no company weather folks, most often on our own. But we are better than all of those guys? We don't need what they need?
I say again, it's exactly the folks who think they are above the SMS, who think it's crap, who need it the most.
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