Nationwide Walkout!!!!

[JPAustin]

Not to mention that if a national walkout ever happenned, a judge would not be hard pressed to deem that walkout illegal and also a violation of anti-trust laws. Its been done before with NLRB unions in the past. God help the RLA union that does it!

Its a nice wish and would prove a very valid point, but unfortunately that is one of the things labor cannot do so that our nation's infrastructure is not unnecessarily ravaged by nationwide labor shortages in various industries.

 

[pilotyip]

Sirfly. Again you have not answered the question, if you raise pilot wages, you have to raise tickets prices. Higher tickets prices mean fewer riders, the legacy airlines understand that very well. Fewer tickets fewer pilots. And those being hired would most likely be ex-military the pilot of choice from the regulation days in 1970's, so you might make out under that plan but most people on this board would reap the benefit of the national senority list.

 

[BoilerUP]

I would say Rez sees things more clearly than most. As I said before, when coming up with solutions, you must be realistic. At this point in time, with dozens of domestic ALPA-represented airlines, how are you going to integrate everybody? Are you going to do it DOH - that would benefit the 21 year old bridge program FO and screw the 35 year old ex-military pilot. Are you going to do it by date of ATP - how would you be able to confirm that? How do you keep pilots from being free agents and jumping from one airline to another?

The ball was dropped when the mainline failed to capture RJ flying. If I'm furloughed with 7 years of experience I want a national seniority list so I can go get another good job; if I've been at a regional for 4 years and am a Captain I'll be danged if I give up my seat to somebody else. See where the devisiveness would come in? Short of a 10 year fence, individual MECs would never buy off on such a thing and it would ultimately lead the demise of ALPA.

More unity within the profession is required for us to stand together, but a NSL is a dividing factor, not a unifying one.

 

[Ty Webb]

The main thing isn't a seniority list; it is a minimum rate of pay per equipment and seat. That is what prevents an airline from cutting pilot pay as a competitive advantage. Your union still negotiates pay, work rules, etc., but a company cannot pay a pilot an hourly rate less than that specified by the Airline Pilots Guild, or whatever entity is formed.

I would say Delta pay prior to the first set of givebacks would be a starting point. The airlines will use this as a reason to increase fares, and blame us, and everyone's happy.

 

[SirFlyALot]

Sirfly. Again you have not answered the question, if you raise pilot wages, you have to raise tickets prices. Higher tickets prices mean fewer riders, the legacy airlines understand that very well. Fewer tickets fewer pilots. And those being hired would most likely be ex-military the pilot of choice from the regulation days in 1970's, so you might make out under that plan but most people on this board would reap the benefit of the national senority list.

A rise in pilot wages does not necessarily drive an increase in ticket prices. A forced rise in pilot wages may compel management to find new efficiencies in other areas. While I agree in general that a rise in the cost of pilots for the airlines would generate a need to raise ticket prices since that is the easy answer, it is not a direct relationship as you suggest.

More importantly, however, you bring up the issue of the elasticity of demand for airline travel. I don't think any of us know what that curve looks like right now. An important factor in determining demand elasticity is the availablility of substitutes. If every airline was forced to pay pilots at least a national minimum pay scale, then each airline would be similarly impacted. No airline would suddenly become a bargain alternative simply because of a national, univeral pay scale. What about buses, cars, and trains. Consumers today have been conditioned to regard air travel as a normal, everyday thing not an elite thing the way it was in the day. I don't think any of us know to what degree and at what price points consumers today would opt to use these modes of transportation if air travel became more expensive. This is an issue that needs to be studied.

Finally, your assertion that ex-military pilots would be the primary benefactors of a National Seniority List is baseless. To begin with the 1970's were 30+ years ago. Simply because things may have been one way during the 1970's does not mean that things will be that way today. Times have changed. The composition of pilot groups has changed. There are many more civilian-background guys out there and they have more influence.

I would say Rez sees things more clearly than most. As I said before, when coming up with solutions, you must be realistic. At this point in time, with dozens of domestic ALPA-represented airlines, how are you going to integrate everybody? Are you going to do it DOH - that would benefit the 21 year old bridge program FO and screw the 35 year old ex-military pilot. Are you going to do it by date of ATP - how would you be able to confirm that? How do you keep pilots from being free agents and jumping from one airline to another?

Yes, Boiler, you must be realistic. Let's be realistic for a few moments. To whom does the current framework we have for seniority and pay scales give the advantage to? Pilots or management? Who has the leverage? Pilots or management? Where do you see pay, benefits, and work rules headed if we stay the course? Better or worse? Look into the future and what do you see? Better or worse?

Boiler, in addition to being realistic, you must also have some vision. Imagine being a pilot and not having to wed yourself to the fortunes of a single company for an entire career. Imagine being a pilot where a strong union has enough leverage to negotiate better conditions for you and your family. No answers are perfect but some are better than others. A National Seniority List would have some drawbacks. No denying that. But our current system is rife with drawbacks that have left us with virtually no leverage and no power to stop the erosion.

You also must be creative. For example, to address your concerns about list integration, there are a thousand ways to do it. None of them would be perfect. However, off the top of my head, one method would be to do the initial list based on maybe 1) for civilian background guys, when they got their ATP, and 2) for military background guys, when they became certified as an aircraft commander for heavy guys or lead qualified for fighters. I'm not saying that that particular idea is even a good idea...it's just a brainstorm...so please don't jump all over it. The point is that there are solutions out there that would work and be equitable. It would just take some creativity, research, and thought to create a better overall environment for all of us. And...remember, the aim is not to create a perfect world but a better world than we have today.

 

[Ty Webb]

Not to mention that if a national walkout ever happenned, a judge would not be hard pressed to deem that walkout illegal and also a violation of anti-trust laws. Its been done before with NLRB unions in the past. God help the RLA union that does it!

This was already thoroughly covered, about three pages back. What people are talking about is a grass-roots "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore" action. Not-a-union-sanctioned-event.

Do I need to spell it out for you letter by letter? Sheesh.

 

[Ty Webb]

A rise in pilot wages does not necessarily drive an increase in ticket prices. A forced rise in pilot wages may compel management to find new efficiencies in other areas.

Absolutely correct. Just trying to keep it simple.

If every airline was forced to pay pilots at least a national minimum pay scale, then each airline would be similarly impacted. No airline would suddenly become a bargain alternative simply because of a national, univeral pay scale. . . . I don't think any of us know to what degree and at what price points consumers today would opt to use these modes of transportation if air travel became more expensive. This is an issue that needs to be studied.

Also correct.

A National Seniority List would have some drawbacks. No denying that. But our current system is rife with drawbacks that have left us with virtually no leverage and no power to stop the erosion.

You also must be creative. For example, to address your concerns about list integration, there are a thousand ways to do it. None of them would be perfect. . . . . . And...remember, the aim is not to create a perfect world but a better world than we have today.

Ding! DIng! Ding! We have a winner.

Sorry about hacking up your post.

 

[philo beddoe]

Not to attack your idea at all, but date of ATP is probably not a great idea.
Perhaps use the date where one first came off probation at a 121 union carrier? Perhaps seniority could be started at the end of the apprentice year at your first 121 union job, and "years in service" would accrue as long as one remained at a 121 union carrier.

If you quit to fly corporate, it stops your accrual until you start again at a 121 union carrier. If you are furloughed, you continue to acquire years in service unless you resign your position (for ex. if you go to work for a part 91 job that demands you resign your furlough recall rights). Your years in service are banked forever. You never lose any, it just simply suspends accrual until you take another 121 position. This prevents you from having to make a hard choice as a furloughee. Your new company can demand that you resign your callback rights, but as long as you could get hired again, you would not lose seniority.

In my opinion, this maximizes credit for those who have put in years of work for 121. The date of ATP method could unfairly penalize a long time FO at Eagle in favor of a lower time pilot at a fast upgrade carrier. The ATP should matter less than the number of months paying union dues at a real 121 carrier.

To summarize, this could create a de facto national list. However, your position on the list could change if you leave the 121 (union) world to fly corporate for a while. You remain suspended in time, so to speak, while others who are stying in the profession accrue more years in service. If you leave involuntarily (furlough, shutdown), you continue to accrue years in service. This prevents "bad luck" from changing your position on the list. However, deliberately leaving the list, and thusly your union profession, suspends you in time until you return.

Notice my careful use of the word union. Maybe, just maybe, if this type of system was in place, it would offer so much long term potential and security that it could cause non-union carriers to unionize. They would realize that if their company ever shut down, they would go to the bottom of someone's list and have no seniority "portability".

How would military pilots be handled? I don't know. Perhaps consider them "in" starting one year after the date of their first assignment as a fully qualified crewmember. This would mimic the civilian side of the system. After leaving military service, the years in service accrual stops unless they become employed by a 121 union carrier.

I realize that this will never happen, but I am interested in others opinions on the upsides and downsides of this idea.

philo

 

[tired_pilot]

dont count the regional guys out

We're talking about the majors here overall. Its insane flying a mainline jet as capt and making under 100K +-. Whats sad and shouldnt be tolerated in this country is whats going on at some regionals. The majority of the public doesnt know how bad the regional pilots are exploited. 16 hour duty days 6 on 1 off etc etc. I did a permenant "One day" walk out from Mesa a couple years ago after one of those 6 on 1 off weeks, I got home to find my paycheck of $475 for two weeks for flying the Dash 8. I think theres enough guys at the regionals who arent 21 years old with silver spoons who would jump at the chance to help this industry and themselves if they could.

 

[pilotyip]

There will be foreign and non-union national airlines to content with; it has always been that way and will most likely be that way in the future. When all you guys get together and raise the prices, it will open a new window for a new low cost airline like the old Spirit, AirTran, AWA etc. What is wrong with $100K for doing something you like in a job that can be filled by a high school grad?

 

[SirFlyALot]

phil beddoe: THANK YOU! Your post is exactly the kind of creativity and imagination we need to have as pilots. I think there is a lot of merit to your ideas. Furlough Fodder also had some great ideas earlier in the thread. Seriously, this is the kind of creative thinking that we absolutely must have if we are going to advance beyond our current state.

There will be foreign and non-union national airlines to content with; it has always been that way and will most likely be that way in the future. When all you guys get together and raise the prices, it will open a new window for a new low cost airline like the old Spirit, AirTran, AWA etc.

The issue you raise here is the problem of scabs. It is a very serious issue. Without a doubt, if a national union was created, an attempt would eventually be made to subvert it with scabs. If the authority of a national union is circumvented by 1) management creating a non-union pilot group, 2) a pilot group creating their own independent union, 3) management bringing in replacement workers during a union action, or 4) management outsourcing flying to a foreign carrier or foreign pilots, then a national union will be rendered impotent.

Once again, creativity, vision, research, and thought will be required to devise methods for handling the scab problem. Scabs, in whatever form they take, must not be allowed to be successful. We must vigorously go after scabs to the limits of the law. We must make their lives as miserable as the law allows. The repercussions for scabbing must be so severe and so persistent that the price of scabbing is just not worth it. Those who do scab must be made examples of (legally). I'm sure there are many ways to go about this.

What is wrong with $100K for doing something you like in a job that can be filled by a high school grad?

I don't know what to make of this statement. I honestly am not sure what point you're trying to make. For one thing, flying for a major 121 carrier generally requires a college degree. I guess you disagree witht that requirement.

Let me ask you these questions:
What is wrong with $80K for doing something you like in a job that can be filled by a college grad?
What is wrong with $60K for doing something you like in a job that can be filled by a college grad?
What is wrong with $40K for doing something you like in a job that can be filled by a college grad?
What is wrong with $20K for doing something you like in a job that can be filled by a college grad?
How do you answer those pilotyip? Where do you draw the line?

 

[Mr Hat]

I don't know what to make of this statement. I honestly am not sure what point you're trying to make. For one thing, flying for a major 121 carrier generally requires a college degree. I guess you disagree witht that requirement.

Bollocks. There are plenty of us out there who have been flying the 121 system for years without a degree and without killing anyone. Flying requires a particular aptitude, personality, training and experience it does not require a college degree. Most of the 121 airlines 'prefer' a degree but hire without one with proper experience. I disagree with your requirement and being that airlines hire without a degree they must disagree with you as well.

Regardless of all that, pay shouldn't be predicated on how many hoops you had to jump through to get to a 121 job, it should reflect the heavy responsibility that pilots have but be reasonable enough that the company can thrive. Thats where airline compensation had been hovering up and down before 9/11....post 9/11 the responsibility part of the equation has been given far less consideration as airline managements panic in crisis. This thing will come to a head sooner or later.

The other thing here is why do we want to start a national union? We have one already. The infastructure is in place. All that needs to be done is to vote people into your MEC who feel the same way you do and get rid of the career ALPA politicians! Cut the fat and bring it back to the pilots.

 

[SirFlyALot]

Mr Hat: Settle down. I said that most major 121 carriers generally require a college degree. For example:
SWA-"Graduation from accredited, four-year college preferred"
Continental-"A Bachelor's degree is highly desired"
JetBlue-"College Degree preferred"
FedEx-"College Degree from an accredited college or university"
Alaska:"Four year degree given preference"
I didn't say that I thought people without a college degree were incapable or lacked the aptitude for piloting or commanding an aircraft. And yes, I realize that there are folks working for major 121 carriers who don't have a college degree. More power to them!
In fact, I'm sure there are plenty of people out there with an elementary school education or less who would make perfectly decent pilots. However, many airlines have decided, for whatever reason, that they like to have their pilots with four-year degrees.
And by the way, I've said it before and I'll say it again: we are not paid based on what we think we are worth, we are paid based on what we negotiate for ourselves.
We should create a new national union because ALPA, as is widely acknowledged, sucks. They have no credibility and to attempt to accomplish anything meaningful on their coattails would be a set-up for failure.

 

[Ty Webb]

Guys- the idea is to be the most inclusive . . . . bring all 121 pilots into the fold. Membership would be open to anyone, all they have to do is pledge to never work for a 121 airline that did not exclusively employ Guild members. Any presently employed or furloughed airline pilot is eligible. The individual airline can screen applicants, but only Guild members.

Initially, you need to bring all the people presently working or furloughed on board, with no restrictions, and then you must grandfather them in. That's the only fair and reasonable way to do it, as I see it. After that, you can create entry requirements that will maintain the standards and wages, but not at the onset.

If you ever go to work for a non-Guild airline . . . you are not eligible for future employment at a Guild airline. That is future and final. Work for Guild wages, at Guild airlines. Each airline has their own CBA, but can't pay less than Guild wages and can't hire non-Guild members,

 

[Freight Dog]

Fellas...

There are some nice ideas being thrown around here. The problem is that they are too radical, and would never happen. Here's what NEEDS to happen:

Concessions - put an end to them. Take chances with the judge in bankruptcy. Should the company seek 1113(c) and judge approve it, that should be grounds for immediate self-help i.e. strike, and screw it.

Until pilots at all airlines, major or regional, realize that this will be a never-ending cycle until they stand up to the management with teeth, it will continue, you will continue to see pay cuts, pensions and benefits lost, work rules gone, etc.

Finally, this really may be the wave of the future. Our managements have managed to Walmartize our airlines. Everyone wants to be a low-cost airline. What's that tell you? How do the rich people fly these days? Fractionals or corporate. If you were a multi-millionaire, would you want to push and shove through the security line next to some smelly NASCAR fans only to have a TSA gorilla tell you to take off your shoes, belt, etc. and then poke you in the a$$ with his metal detector after you set it off? I know I wouldn't. I'd pay premium to fly on my own jet in true luxury i.e. no lines, no TSA, no screaming kids, no NASCAR fans, no nonrevs, and I leave at the time of MY choosing etc.

Just my .02 cents