Nationwide Walkout!!!!

[Chuck Yogourt]

Give it a rest TY BOY, we all know about the so called Quality of Life at your company. From what I hear, it doesn't exist.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

All wrong...... Get informed!

National Sen list doesn't work. Who is going to pay for it? Why should any airline hire a 10 year pilot at 10 year pay when they can hire a new pilot at 0 year pay? Also, what are you willing to give up to get managment to agree to a National Sen list? A National Sen list means less jobs!! I can see it now, we get a national list and the Pilot Profession becomes a good ol boys club as the same old farts keep regurtitating into the same jobs. Meanwhile you got five year guys sitting at home waiting for an ol fart to die watching his earnings dwindle down as Age 60 comes at him like freight train. You guys are real gems....

Standard rates for equipment and seats? Well, ok, but everbody liked it when DAL was getting UAL +. So, when your Air Line is doing very well, you are stuck with National Rates whereas, you could get higher rates. It is called jacking up the house. If you want a level pay rates industry wide, who is going to negotiate them? ALPA National? Now you got a small group of elected politicians negotiating pay rates for 66,000 pilots. You hate ALPA National now? Think of it this way, do you want the Fed functioning on your behalf on state level issues? Your MEC would become weaker and less effective with your managment. And your crying would be louder.

C'mon guys, all of these issues have been looked at, evaluated, analysed and researched. Then along comes the flightinfo wiz kids with all the answers...

The problem is a majority of you will spend your time on flightinfo vindicating your "knowledge" on the issues by the uninformed and bitter. Typical sheep. Why not become a sheep dog instead of just another mindless member of the flock? Dumb and dumber feeding off of each other......

Read. Ask questions. Listen. It is very difficult to understand the issues when you are talking or trying to cram your (valueless) point home.

Grass Roots movement? How about 66,000 pilots (over 100,000 if the APA, Airtran, FPA and jB, etc. pilots were on board. No, they don't have to join ALPA, but if we are on all the same political movement....) pushing the same political agenda on CapHill?

Everything is determined on Captial Hill.

• How about minimum days off per month? Right now its four. How about 11?
• How about RLA Part 121 Minimum wage? Say $25-$30 hour?
• How about a 14 hour duty day?
• How about controls on executive compensation?

The above are only examples, but they way to get them changed is via Federal Legislation. Politics is everything. Untill you realize this, your efforts are mindless......

 

[pilotyip]

Yea Rez O, and that is called reregulation and there is separate thread on that subject. In addition, no matter what you do to raise pilot pay, it will raise ticket prices and the lower end ridership will go back to the bus and automobile. Fewer passengers, fewer pilot jobs, There is a down side to everything.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yea Rez O, and that is called reregulation and there is separate thread on that subject. In addition, no matter what you do to raise pilot pay, it will raise ticket prices and the lower end ridership will go back to the bus and automobile. Fewer passengers, fewer pilot jobs, There is a down side to everything.

So the Air Line Pilots Career Enhancement Act of 2007 (fictional point of discussion) is really just re regulation? Call it want you want....

Then all the FARs are just regulation? Are we still too regulated?

What solutions do you bring to the table? Or are you content with the status quo?

 

[CUZ]

Hey REZ. I agree with most of what you say. Its obvious to me you have a pretty good knowledge of this industry and the problems our profession faces. Please understand, alot of the folks on this board are jobless (or soon to be), with no income, no retirement, and seeing their pay and benefits erode. (Maybe even including yourself) Some folks are just venting, and trying to understand. I dont think being critical and bashing them for their humble opinions is the answer. Perhaps you could share some of your intiment knowledge and help steer public opinion. Its obvious you are pretty intelligent and have alot to offer. (NO sarcasm). How does our profession lobby captial hill? How do we bring light to our plight? Obviously supply/demand has a tremendous part to play in the equation, however I do believe in your opinion that we could make progress collectively, via capital hill. We just need a means to do so. Suggestions?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

CUZ,

Thanks for the reply and kind words. I'm not that smart. Just did a little union work and read some books. That doesn't make me smart, but it does provide a perspective over the guy who hasn't read.

Here is my short list (as seen before...)

Hard Landing
The Air Line Pilots: A Study in Elite Unionization
Fly the Line Vol. Vol. I & II. (not ALPA propaganda as believed!)
Confessions of a Union Buster
When the Air Lines Went to War


So many pilots spend so much time on this message board trying out nickel and dime thoughts, without even understanding the hows and why of implementing such an idea. If they would take the time to read a few books our effectiveness would be so much better. Once we all get up to speed, fresh ideas will flow.

I am not advocating a fad or get rich scheme. I am advocating information and education. Free will and independant thought. All we have to do is log off FI and read.

I apologize for the rant and vitrol. Nontheless my Mantra and Mission remain unchanged; Education. I believe as a collective group we can save this Profession. If we don't take control of our future someone else will.

It starts with the books..... read and we can take it to the next level.


(sorry if a reader was looking for wit and entertianment in this post. But the reality is if we are going to save this profession it is going to take some quiet moments with the books and and our own thoughts. Time inside our own heads...)

 

[filejw]

What we really need is a nation-wide contract.Amendable on the same day and negotiated by the union and an industry group(ATA).That way we all go together when the time comes.This is a little bit more of a long term goal but more realistic too.A nation wide walkout for say next month would be hard to get going and very illegal.As far as a national seniority list go's I think its to late but a good idea.However all flying that is sold as one carrier should have pilots on the same list.I would allow code share as long as both airlines assume the commercial risk.Thats it for now from an old timer.

 

[furloughfodder]

It is possible to do a national seniority list. You need to run it like the longshoremen, doctors, and lawyers do.

When an airline needs to hire new pilots, they contact the Union. The union provides them with a list of possible candidates... it is supply and demand. The union would be able to dictate who a company is allowed to hire.

The union members would be able to bid for jobs, and it would be all based on seniority and experience. For instance, if a company needed 767 drivers, they would be allowed to interview from a pool of qualified 767 pilots. You, as a union member would have a standing bid on file.

The only way we can re-take control of our profession is to regulate it ourselves.

When the longshoremen in San Francisco go on strike, you don’t see the ones from L.A. coming up to scab or sneak around the picket lines. When the longshoremen from San Francisco go on strike, the ENTIRE WEST COAST is shut down. Now that is true power. That is a true union. ALPA is a club.

Initiating everyone’s seniority number would be tough at the beginning. Some say you can do it based on when you got your ATP. Some base it on overall experience. That would have to be determined.

Going forward… all new union members would be required to take tests to become ‘certified’ into the union. Not unlike the BAR exam, or with Doctors, joining the AMA. The reason doctors get paid so much is because they regulate their own profession still. You would have to apply to, and be accepted into this new “pilots union”.

The easiest way to implement these changes would be for ALPA to begin the process, instead of forming a brand new union. Unfortunately we all know how utterly corrupt ALPA National is, so it is my belief this needs to be a new endeavor.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

What we really need is a nation-wide contract.Amendable on the same day and negotiated by the union and an industry group(ATA).That way we all go together when the time comes.This is a little bit more of a long term goal but more realistic too.A nation wide walkout for say next month would be hard to get going and very illegal.As far as a national seniority list go's I think its to late but a good idea.However all flying that is sold as one carrier should have pilots on the same list.I would allow code share as long as both airlines assume the commercial risk.Thats it for now from an old timer.

Ok...you offer ideas, but no real meat and potatoes. A nation wide contract? Again, think of it as the FED negotiating your state issues. There are so many variables at each airline that a nation wide contract imposed on certian carriers could be devistating. The issues at UAL are very different at DAL.

If a National Sen List was a good idea....then why don't we have it?

All flying under one code is one pilot list? Again, the pilots don't control airlines. If Comair operates CRJs for Delta and you have one pilot list, who do the pilots work for? DAL or Comair? How can a DAL pilot fly a Comair jet and vice versa?

Look times are tough now. It is what it is... Funny, when times are good no one complains. And when times get tough all of a sudden people care and have quick fix ideas.

The way to do it is to build your war chest (education and information, etc) during the good times so when the bad hit, we have the skill set to endure. One of the reasons we are getting hammered right now is because we are not educated. Like poor ignorant in the inner city, sometimes we are our own worst enemies.

One fault of ALPA is they only get 30 minutes in new hire class to build a relationship with its pilots. In 30 minutes ALPA justitifes your 1.95% by telling you what ALPA does for you. Actually ALPA should be enforcing that ALPA is a resource not a service.

 

[CUZ]

Well said REZ. I agree. On a separate note, I find it incredibly ironic that its ILLEGAL for pilots to just walk out (park em), but its LEGAL, to file bankruptcy, walk out on your obligations, and slide the shaft to the worker bees in the form of Snatched retirements, pay, benefits. One thing I dont understand though. (Someone please splain it to me) How is it that the Government allows the airlines to default on the pensions with its guarantor agency (pbgc), picking up the tab. If you and I, the average person, doesnt pay a dollar on our taxes the irs cronies are on us like flies at a clam bake. What does the government stand to gain by accepting billions in debt? I heard an interesting fact. It would take every household in America paying 625 Bucks, to bail out the PBGC alone. Thats a little scarey. Can anyone shed some light on this? I'm obviously missing something.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It is possible to do a national seniority list. You need to run it like the longshoremen, doctors, and lawyers do.

When an airline needs to hire new pilots, they contact the Union. The union provides them with a list of possible candidates... it is supply and demand. The union would be able to dictate who a company is allowed to hire.

The union members would be able to bid for jobs, and it would be all based on seniority and experience. For instance, if a company needed 767 drivers, they would be allowed to interview from a pool of qualified 767 pilots. You, as a union member would have a standing bid on file.

The only way we can re-take control of our profession is to regulate it ourselves.

When the longshoremen in San Francisco go on strike, you don’t see the ones from L.A. coming up to scab or sneak around the picket lines. When the longshoremen from San Francisco go on strike, the ENTIRE WEST COAST is shut down. Now that is true power. That is a true union. ALPA is a club.

Initiating everyone’s seniority number would be tough at the beginning. Some say you can do it based on when you got your ATP. Some base it on overall experience. That would have to be determined.

Going forward… all new union members would be required to take tests to become ‘certified’ into the union. Not unlike the BAR exam, or with Doctors, joining the AMA. The reason doctors get paid so much is because they regulate their own profession still. You would have to apply to, and be accepted into this new “pilots union”.

The easiest way to implement these changes would be for ALPA to begin the process, instead of forming a brand new union. Unfortunately we all know how utterly corrupt ALPA National is, so it is my belief this needs to be a new endeavor.

Furloughfodder,

Not quite. You reference longshoreman, doctors and lawyers. None of which operate under the RLA. Read. Education. Airlines have a right to run thier operation. This is what fly and grieve it is all about....

You said

The only way we can re-take control of our profession is to regulate it ourselves.

Change regulate to legislate.

Respectfully, your post can be quickly picked apart......

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Well said REZ. I agree. On a separate note, I find it incredibly ironic that its ILLEGAL for pilots to just walk out (park em), but its LEGAL, to file bankruptcy, walk out on your obligations, and slide the shaft to the worker bees in the form of Snatched retirements, pay, benefits. One thing I dont understand though. (Someone please splain it to me) How is it that the Government allows the airlines to default on the pensions with its guarantor agency (pbgc), picking up the tab. If you and I, the average person, doesnt pay a dollar on our taxes the irs cronies are on us like flies at a clam bake. What does the government stand to gain by accepting billions in debt? I heard an interesting fact. It would take every household in America paying 625 Bucks, to bail out the PBGC alone. Thats a little scarey. Can anyone shed some light on this? I'm obviously missing something.

I can't speak specifically to PBGC issues. But on a broader scale, the culture and laws are set up in this country to benefit business. This is why it is illegal to walk out on a job (RLA) but business can file BK and live forever. It is all about the dollar. It is just the way it is...

This is why ALPA normally endorses pro labor canidates which is usually Democrats. And of course this enfuriates most pilots as most pilots are Rebublicans.

During the Clinton Admin, the ALPA National guys had a communication line to the White House. If they needed to they could contact a policy maker within the administration. The current communication lines are severed.

By now most guys reading this are thinking I am commie, liberal gay homo loving freak....

Well, not even maybe. I just understand how the system works.....

 

[Mr Hat]

I wasn't advocating "standard" pay rates for equipment. I was advocating MINIMUM pay rates IE Your pay will be at least X or national will not sign your contract. It doesn't need to be a high rate, just a fair one. In fact, it shouldn't even be public knowlege what those rates are. The negotiating committees should be briefed and gagged on that information then go from there. It does no good to have a minimum if the ones your negotiating with know what that minimum is. Might it piss some people off if their contract isn't up to snuff and it gets kicked back by national? Maybe but for the greater good it may need to be done.

Pilots in this environment are their own worst enemies. Someone needs to stop the whipsawing and the bidding wars.

Again, National seniority list....bah. Work on getting one seniority list per brand then you can think about a national list. Duane Woerth was on the right track a few years ago with his "brand management" which essentially advocated one list per brand but he has since given up the idea. That is still a huge problem that directly affects pilot compensation levels at ALL the airlines major, regional or national. Get RJ's on Major airline property and we can rebuild, the damage has already been done.

 

[Ty Webb]

Give it a rest TY BOY, we all know about the so called Quality of Life at your company. From what I hear, it doesn't exist.

Yawn . . . .

This thread is about a Nationwide walkout. Since you don't have anything intelligent to add to the conversation, how about a nice hot cup of STFU?

 

[SirFlyALot]

People like Rez O Lewshin, whoever he or she is, are the embodiement of what is wrong with pilots in this country as a group: backward-thinking, lacking creativity, pompous, self-righteous, hopeless, fearful, the list goes on. Their stale ideas and our failure to take drastic action under their counsel has not gotten us anywhere but where we already are. It has been said that, "If you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you've always got". If we take the advice of folks like ol' Rez, then we take no further action because, in their minds, all possible solutions have already been thought of. To wit: "If a National Sen List was a good idea....then why don't we have it?". A variation of the same question could have been asked a couple of hundred years ago, "If democracy was a good idea...then why don't we have it?" The answer, we know now, was that the ideas and methods of implementation for democracy had not yet quite been refined and a brave group of men and women had not yet unified and laid everything on the line in order to see democracy take hold. That changed with the American Revolution. Well, you know what Rez? A National Seniority List is a good idea and we don't have it yet for many of the same reasons that democracy didn't take hold until the American Revolution came along.

People like Furloughfodder prove that there are creative ways to think about the challenges and problems posed by implementing a National Seniority List. Furloughfodder's ideas aren't necessarily the final solution but they are a great start. I'm sure there will be many ideas and iterations before we have something that is truly workable.

Here's a question to ask the reactionary elements in our pilot groups: if a National Seniority List is not the answer, then what is? More of the same? At what point do we all collectively stop banging our head against the wall?

We will be compensated based only on what we are able to negotiate and nothing else. We will only be able to negotiate effectively if we have strength. Strength will come from unity. You've heard it before: "United we stand. Divided we fall". A National Seniority List will both unify and strengthen us.

 

[JPAustin]

Not to mention that if a national walkout ever happenned, a judge would not be hard pressed to deem that walkout illegal and also a violation of anti-trust laws. Its been done before with NLRB unions in the past. God help the RLA union that does it!

Its a nice wish and would prove a very valid point, but unfortunately that is one of the things labor cannot do so that our nation's infrastructure is not unnecessarily ravaged by nationwide labor shortages in various industries.

 

[pilotyip]

Sirfly. Again you have not answered the question, if you raise pilot wages, you have to raise tickets prices. Higher tickets prices mean fewer riders, the legacy airlines understand that very well. Fewer tickets fewer pilots. And those being hired would most likely be ex-military the pilot of choice from the regulation days in 1970's, so you might make out under that plan but most people on this board would reap the benefit of the national senority list.

 

[BoilerUP]

I would say Rez sees things more clearly than most. As I said before, when coming up with solutions, you must be realistic. At this point in time, with dozens of domestic ALPA-represented airlines, how are you going to integrate everybody? Are you going to do it DOH - that would benefit the 21 year old bridge program FO and screw the 35 year old ex-military pilot. Are you going to do it by date of ATP - how would you be able to confirm that? How do you keep pilots from being free agents and jumping from one airline to another?

The ball was dropped when the mainline failed to capture RJ flying. If I'm furloughed with 7 years of experience I want a national seniority list so I can go get another good job; if I've been at a regional for 4 years and am a Captain I'll be danged if I give up my seat to somebody else. See where the devisiveness would come in? Short of a 10 year fence, individual MECs would never buy off on such a thing and it would ultimately lead the demise of ALPA.

More unity within the profession is required for us to stand together, but a NSL is a dividing factor, not a unifying one.

 

[Ty Webb]

The main thing isn't a seniority list; it is a minimum rate of pay per equipment and seat. That is what prevents an airline from cutting pilot pay as a competitive advantage. Your union still negotiates pay, work rules, etc., but a company cannot pay a pilot an hourly rate less than that specified by the Airline Pilots Guild, or whatever entity is formed.

I would say Delta pay prior to the first set of givebacks would be a starting point. The airlines will use this as a reason to increase fares, and blame us, and everyone's happy.

 

[SirFlyALot]

Sirfly. Again you have not answered the question, if you raise pilot wages, you have to raise tickets prices. Higher tickets prices mean fewer riders, the legacy airlines understand that very well. Fewer tickets fewer pilots. And those being hired would most likely be ex-military the pilot of choice from the regulation days in 1970's, so you might make out under that plan but most people on this board would reap the benefit of the national senority list.

A rise in pilot wages does not necessarily drive an increase in ticket prices. A forced rise in pilot wages may compel management to find new efficiencies in other areas. While I agree in general that a rise in the cost of pilots for the airlines would generate a need to raise ticket prices since that is the easy answer, it is not a direct relationship as you suggest.

More importantly, however, you bring up the issue of the elasticity of demand for airline travel. I don't think any of us know what that curve looks like right now. An important factor in determining demand elasticity is the availablility of substitutes. If every airline was forced to pay pilots at least a national minimum pay scale, then each airline would be similarly impacted. No airline would suddenly become a bargain alternative simply because of a national, univeral pay scale. What about buses, cars, and trains. Consumers today have been conditioned to regard air travel as a normal, everyday thing not an elite thing the way it was in the day. I don't think any of us know to what degree and at what price points consumers today would opt to use these modes of transportation if air travel became more expensive. This is an issue that needs to be studied.

Finally, your assertion that ex-military pilots would be the primary benefactors of a National Seniority List is baseless. To begin with the 1970's were 30+ years ago. Simply because things may have been one way during the 1970's does not mean that things will be that way today. Times have changed. The composition of pilot groups has changed. There are many more civilian-background guys out there and they have more influence.

I would say Rez sees things more clearly than most. As I said before, when coming up with solutions, you must be realistic. At this point in time, with dozens of domestic ALPA-represented airlines, how are you going to integrate everybody? Are you going to do it DOH - that would benefit the 21 year old bridge program FO and screw the 35 year old ex-military pilot. Are you going to do it by date of ATP - how would you be able to confirm that? How do you keep pilots from being free agents and jumping from one airline to another?

Yes, Boiler, you must be realistic. Let's be realistic for a few moments. To whom does the current framework we have for seniority and pay scales give the advantage to? Pilots or management? Who has the leverage? Pilots or management? Where do you see pay, benefits, and work rules headed if we stay the course? Better or worse? Look into the future and what do you see? Better or worse?

Boiler, in addition to being realistic, you must also have some vision. Imagine being a pilot and not having to wed yourself to the fortunes of a single company for an entire career. Imagine being a pilot where a strong union has enough leverage to negotiate better conditions for you and your family. No answers are perfect but some are better than others. A National Seniority List would have some drawbacks. No denying that. But our current system is rife with drawbacks that have left us with virtually no leverage and no power to stop the erosion.

You also must be creative. For example, to address your concerns about list integration, there are a thousand ways to do it. None of them would be perfect. However, off the top of my head, one method would be to do the initial list based on maybe 1) for civilian background guys, when they got their ATP, and 2) for military background guys, when they became certified as an aircraft commander for heavy guys or lead qualified for fighters. I'm not saying that that particular idea is even a good idea...it's just a brainstorm...so please don't jump all over it. The point is that there are solutions out there that would work and be equitable. It would just take some creativity, research, and thought to create a better overall environment for all of us. And...remember, the aim is not to create a perfect world but a better world than we have today.