Nationwide Walkout!!!!

[TWA Dude]

That's right. . . . much better to just sit there like a pig in a puddle of s#!t and watch your life go by.

Oh, I see. So you advocate breaking the law thereby encouraging Congress to weaken the RLA. You advocate giving Management even more ammunition to use against those uppity pilots. Action is only good if you're smart about doing it.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Strange statement coming from somebody who isn't even an ALPA member. Like you really care about Delta pilots.

 

[Skyline]

Scab

Your only hope??!!!
Here is a clue since you don't have one.

If you have to be a scab it is not a good company!!

I feel sorry for you.

Dave B

You are probably right about that, but what else is there for the majority of us?

You should feel sorry for us. We are hungry and need a good job that has the potential as least to help support a family of 4. It is hard for me to have any sympathy for guys at UPS or FedEx. Rather than try for unity you should be heating up the oil and sharpening your arrows because the peasants will be storming the castle soon.

I'd like to post more but I have to leave for work.

Skyline

 

[AA717driver]

My point is that ALPA is done. They failed to adapt to changing times just like the management at the legacy carriers.

Why is it that only now we have a crisis? I guess to a Braniff pilot the crisis occurred in the early '80's. To an Eastern Captain who was age 52 in 1989, that was when the crisis happened. For me and my fellow TWA people, it was 2002.

This "crisis" has been happening for a couple of decades now and ALPA elected to do nothing. Now it's too late. The MEC's of the remaining carriers--both ALPA and independent, need to get together and form a new union. Hopefully, it will be based on doing what is good for the entire industry not just for their own personal career progression. If that happens, maybe--and it's only a very slim maybe, there will be an airline career for our kids to aspire to.

Our generation f-ed this up badly. We can get it back on track.TC

P.S.--Brown and Purple had better pay attention, too. As UAL, AA and Delta found out, no one is immune when management sets it mind to cutting you down.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Being disgusted as to what management is doing to labor unions nationwide, I have a proposal. ALPA should organize a nationwide walkout for 1 day. It's kind of like giving management a taste of their own medicine. Something has to be done to convey the message to management the 'race to the bottom' has to stop.

While I am glad to see some of the regional boys starting to try and stand up for something.

I am puzzeled why they did not do it before? You know, back when UsAir was being gutted, TWA, UAL, etc...

Oh wait.....thats right, back then mgmt. was busy gutting the mainlines and buying the regional boys a whole heap o new shiny jets to play with! I see, now that your rj's are being removed out from under you by other regionals that are undercutting you, you now want a nationwide action campaign.

About 4 years ago I got bashed on another webboard for bringing this fact up, back then I told those guys that is was only a matter of time before they were the ones targeted, and if it kept up their chances of ever seeing a mainline in their career was quickly dissappearing. I believe his exact response to me was (coming from a 25 year old new RJ Capt.), "Your time is over old man, your kind is a dinosaur, get out of the way." Funny how a few years and approaching 30 years old will change a fellows point of view!


OK Rant over, At least it is nice that the regional guys are starting to see that what happens to one section of the industry affect all of us sooner or later.

Complete integration of all regional carriers into the parent company's seniority list is the only way to solve this problem. However I think the window of oppertunity on that is far past.

 

[FN FAL]

-- It's illegal. Expect consequences from the courts.

Yea, a "walk out" would be illegal for the Union to do...but if every body just up and walked off the job and quit, the courts couldn't do anything to you.

 

[BoilerUP]

Yea, a "walk out" would be illegal for the Union to do...but if every body just up and walked off the job and quit, the courts couldn't do anything to you.

I actually advocated that on another thread. If on the first day of BlowJets revenue operations the TSA MEC Chairman had walked the resignations (effective immediately) of every TSA pilot into Uncle Hulie, ALPA would have instantly had Trans States, TSA Holdings, GJ, etc by the nads because there's no way to cover that flying and its definately not illegal to quit a job.

Such an action would be lauded on these boards as TSA pilots would have taken the ultimate stand to become martyrs for the profession. It would have been the ultimate game of chicken to which Hulas would have capitulated or folded his operation. Unfortunately, suggesting such an action is unrealistic, as you cannot reasonably expect people with families and liabilities to up and quit their jobs en masse in protest...and TSA pilots are more united than most.

 

[FN FAL]

I actually advocated that on another thread. If on the first day of BlowJets revenue operations the TSA MEC Chairman had walked the resignations (effective immediately) of every TSA pilot into Uncle Hulie, ALPA would have instantly had Trans States, TSA Holdings, GJ, etc by the nads because there's no way to cover that flying and its definately not illegal to quit a job.

Such an action would be lauded on these boards as TSA pilots would have taken the ultimate stand to become martyrs for the profession. It would have been the ultimate game of chicken to which Hulas would have capitulated or folded his operation. Unfortunately, suggesting such an action is unrealistic, as you cannot reasonably expect people with families and liabilities to up and quit their jobs en masse in protest...and TSA pilots are more united than most.

It would be career suicide, no doubt.

 

[Mr Hat]

We got this all wrong. We don't need a national seniority list, that would cause more problems than it would solve. I do think that way before that should happen the unions should push for single lists among certain brands. Example, CAL/XJET one list, DAL and everyone that feeds them one list, NWA, AAL, UAL, USAir and their respective regionals, one list.

The true problem here is the RJ. I am an RJ captain however, I can see where the problem lies. Now some might say that if the problem is the RJ, then the RJ pilots are to blams....wrong. The real people who dropped the ball are the pilots at the majors who ALLOWED those "Turbo props without props" to be operated by the regionals in the first place. I can totally see why they made that decision though, managments of the US airlines lulled everyone into a false sense of security. "It's only an RJ, it's just a turbo prop without props, it's not a threat to your jobs besides who wants to go back to flying a turbo-prop without props anyway" SOOOOOO the Major airline pilots of America said "Okay fine, you can operate those airplanes at the regionals" with varying rules.

These RJ's came online with their turbo prop pay and did "regional" type flying. But a few years later, as they proved themselves those airplanes started to replace DC9 routes, then 737 routes and now there is a glut of RJ's and all bets are off. They fly the same routes as the mainline aircraft but are still being paid turbo prop pay.

Now here's the clincher. The major airline pilots and ALPA national never gave much thought to regional pilot pay....."Pay your dues kid! I did!" was the phrase. The problem is that all airline pilots are connected on these issues, hence the reason for ALPA national in the first place. It took some time but eventually management realized that if these RJ pilots will work for X, so will the 737 guys and so on.

One of the negotiating issues we had at XJet in 2000 was that we wanted our pay to be in line with CAL. Meaning that we wanted to use the same method of paying CAL aircraft applied to the RJ instead of the ATR method.
We fell short of what we thought was "in-line" with CAL pay in 2000 but then CAL took concessions and guess what, We are now paid in line with CAL but they came down to us, not us up to them.

The same thing has happened all over the industry, the RJ pilots aren't so severly underpaid anymore because the majors have all taken concessions and come down to our level. Interpolate from the 737 down and the RJ's should be in line with major airline pay.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't blame the pilots of the major airlines in the 90's who allowed RJ's at the regionals. There was no way to know that this would happen....in fact if you went back in time and told them, they wouldn't believe you. Conversly you can't blame the RJ pilots, we are all pawns in the same game.
The RJ paved the way to water down pilot compensation levels. 9/11 accelerated that watering down and gas prices are now pushing it further. Soon, RJ's will start to go away but replacing those RJs will be E190's which will further degrade the industry pay because a precident has already been made by paying those pilots flying anything Embraer at turbo prop rates....(Don't believe me? The E190 and E170 are comparable to a 737 and DC 9 respectivly....look at the difference in pay!)

What ALPA national needs to do is set minimum equipment rates and refuse to sign any contract that violates those rates. Its the only way to stop people from trying to cut their brothers heads off in "Pilot pay fare wars"

Just my opinion.

 

[TWA Dude]

Yea, a "walk out" would be illegal for the Union to do...but if every body just up and walked off the job and quit, the courts couldn't do anything to you.

Time to lead by example, buddy.

 

[Ty Webb]

Oh, I see. So you advocate breaking the law thereby encouraging Congress to weaken the RLA.

You don't seem to get it, Chief. It's not illegal. It's not a union position, it's a common-sense grass-roots reaction. A nationwide "Sick Out" because we're "Sick of It". We're not chipping in for gas money. The Airlines are going to have to manage their way out of their problems, and cutting pilot pay further isn;t an option, period. Raise fares, and manage intelligently. Stop raiding the coffers and bailing with golden parachutes.

Strange statement coming from somebody who isn't even an ALPA member.

You're right I'm not an ALPA member. I'm a pilot . . A pilot with a brain, and some stones. What are you? Apparently, a beaten-down person who is content to just take it and take it.

Like you really care about Delta pilots.

Sure I do. Because we are all in this together- something you don't seem to get. Maybe after two more pay cuts and/or another pink slip the curtain will lift, and all will be made clear for you. Me, I see it now.


.

 

[TWA Dude]

You don't seem to get it, Chief. It's not illegal.

Tell that to the judge.

The Airlines are going to have to manage their way out of their problems, and cutting pilot pay further isn;t an option, period. Raise fares, and manage intelligently. Stop raiding the coffers and bailing with golden parachutes.

Preaching to the choir.

What are you? Apparently, a beaten-down person who is content to just take it and take it.

Take it? Take what? I've been a Teamster, ALPA, APA, ALPA, and ALPA again. I'm also a member of a class-action lawsuit against ALPA. I vote in every election. If we strike I'll strike. A nationwide sickout will generate plenty of publicity (as intended) with the result being more wins for management.

Sure I do. Because we are all in this together- something you don't seem to get. Maybe after two more pay cuts and/or another pink slip the curtain will lift, and all will be made clear for you. Me, I see it now.

Speaking of pink slips, you're seeing things through rose-colored glasses. As others here have more eloquently stated ALPA pilots have very different interests depending on which company they fly for and how senior they are. Effective leadership might be able to trick the public into thinking there's unity but most of usl know better.

 

[Nindiri]

It doesn't matter what the union says about a "sickout". The courts would still hold ALPA responsible for any large scale sickout or mass resignation and hit it with massive fines. You think ALPA is useless now? Try no union at all.

 

[Ty Webb]

What neither of you seem to get is that there is no union to hold accountable. We're not talking ALPA here, we're talking 121 pilots making a stand that ALPA doesn't have the stomach for.

 

[Nindiri]

I understand what you're saying and if you can make it work I'm for it. The problem is that the courts don't care whether the union directly calls for it or not. They will hold it accountable for any sickout or mass resignation. Look what happened in the last few years when pilots at some of the majors tried it and the court warned ALPA that they would be heavily fined if it continued. Hell, if I understand correctly, the union nearly got in trouble at Comair during their negotiations just because the pilots acting independently of ALPA wrote up more mechanical discrepancies than usual.

 

[HowlinMadMurdoc]

Time to lead by example, buddy.

FN FAL can't. He flies a Caravan for a FedEx feeder which means he's non-union.

He won't be falling on any swords anytime soon.

HMM

 

[rvsm410]

What????

Did we just sit around when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?...........................................

I think you better go back and watch the movie or read a book...Germans???

Geez!

 

[BoilerUP]

It was an obscure Animal House reference...

 

[MedFlyer]

I'm a pilot . . A pilot with a brain, and some stones.

Judging by the contract your pilot group is working under, I wouldn't be bragging about your stones too much. Hate to tell you, but upstart LCC's whose pilots have been willing to work for far less are PART of the problem.

As for a walkout, it's a nice idea, but it wouldn't accomplish anything. It would simply turn the flying public and the government against pilots even more. Do you really think you are going to get sympathy from the average Joe?

It's kind of funny that everyone seems to think that just raising fares will solve all the problems. Well, if that's the case:

-Maybe all stores that sell clothes should raise their prices 30%, so that they can pay the sweatshop workers in Asia a decent wage?

-Maybe your grocery store should raise the price of food 30% so that the poor migrants who pick your produce can have a living wage and benefits?

-Maybe the government (state, federal, local) should raise your taxes 30% so that teachers, firefighters, police, EMT's, can get a decent wage?

-Maybe the government should raise taxes even more so that our men and women serving in the armed forces can make a decent wage? Many of the folks on the ground in Iraq make far less than the pilots on this board and are doing work that is far more dangerous and just as difficult.

Everyone on this board screams to raise prices, but I'd bet you wouldn't support the same being done in other industries. I'm not saying that fares shouldn't go up, but there are a lot of consequences that most on this board don't understand.

 

[100LL... Again!]

As I have said before, most people are greedy when times are good. Try getting them to unite for the common good when they are scared and angry.

 

[Ty Webb]

They will hold it accountable for any sickout or mass resignation. Look what happened in the last few years when pilots at some of the majors tried it and the court warned ALPA that they would be heavily fined if it continued. .

Look, guy, I don't all day to sit here and say the same thing over and over. What happened at American was one union. That is why the judge imposed the fine. I-am-not-talking-about-a-union-action. . . . . clear enough? I'm talking about pilots-in-general.