Nationwide Walkout!!!!

[xjjetdog]

Being disgusted as to what management is doing to labor unions nationwide, I have a proposal. ALPA should organize a nationwide walkout for 1 day. It's kind of like giving management a taste of their own medicine. Something has to be done to convey the message to management the 'race to the bottom' has to stop.

 

[AA717driver]

HAHAHAHAHA!!!! HOHOHOHOHOHO!!! Boy, xjet, that's a good one.

Now that the ALPA Golden Boys are in deep $h!t, you want everyone to sit up and take notice. Sorry, that train pulled out of the station in 1983 and kept picking up speed until ALPA stabbed the TWA pilots in the back in 2001.

Let me refresh your memory:

No nationwide walkout when Lorenzo stole the CAL pensions.

No nationwide walkout when random drug testing was implemented.

No nationwide walkout when pilots were forced to go through security screening with the pax.

No nationwide walkout when Lorenzo was stealing EAL blind prior to shutting them down.

No nationwide walkout when the Delta pilots screwed the PanAm pilots.

No nationwide walkout when ALPA carrier Reno got stapled by non-ALPA carrier AA.

No nationwide walkout when Emery pilots got hosed.

No nationwide walkout when ALPA carrier TWA was advised to abandon its SCOPE clause by ALPA attorneys then the majority of its pilots were stapled by non-ALPA carrier AA.

Too little, too late dog...TC

 

[Ty Webb]

HAHAHAHAHA!!!! HOHOHOHOHOHO!!! Boy, xjet, that's a good one.

AA717, I am happy that things "worked out" for you since your furlough. You obviously got a job that you enjoy, that's great. If my airline gig went away tomorrow, as a former 91/135 guy, I would do the same.

Having said that, though, I think as someone who is now "on the outside looking in" you may not appreciate the gravity of what is happening with DAL and NWA (and possibly AMR) filing Chapt. 11 and trying to de-nut their pilot groups.

Under current proposals, DAL and NWA are looking at flying 767's for AirTran 717 pay, and with lesser rigs and benefits . . . . and the AAL 757 pay is already at AirTran 737-800 scales. These latest developments may actually be the last straw . . . or not, but maybe this is one for you to sit out, and let those who "have a dog in this fight" decide what to do.

 

[Lead Sled]

HAHAHAHAHA!!!! HOHOHOHOHOHO!!! Boy, xjet, that's a good one.

Now that the ALPA Golden Boys are in deep $h!t, you want everyone to sit up and take notice. Sorry, that train pulled out of the station in 1983 and kept picking up speed until ALPA stabbed the TWA pilots in the back in 2001.

Let me refresh your memory:

No nationwide walkout when Lorenzo stole the CAL pensions.

No nationwide walkout when random drug testing was implemented.

No nationwide walkout when pilots were forced to go through security screening with the pax.

No nationwide walkout when Lorenzo was stealing EAL blind prior to shutting them down.

No nationwide walkout when the Delta pilots screwed the PanAm pilots.

No nationwide walkout when ALPA carrier Reno got stapled by non-ALPA carrier AA.

No nationwide walkout when Emery pilots got hosed.

No nationwide walkout when ALPA carrier TWA was advised to abandon its SCOPE clause by ALPA attorneys then the majority of its pilots were stapled by non-ALPA carrier AA.

Too little, too late dog...TC

AA717Driver...
Hey you forgot to mention when the United guys screwed the old Frontier folks.

 

[BIGBROWNDC8]

xjjet,

Its funny, but last week, I was thinking the same thing. Im disgusted by what has happened to our industry. The Airline Pilot industry, and I think if any of us expect to have a career that earns more than 90 grand a year, something better get done quick.

Im concerned for our careers, our profession, our industry of airline pilots. I cant believe there are pilots out there that are so self serving and vengeful that they would rather the ship go down than take an action to fix it...

AA717, its guys like you that screw this industry up, your a *&%$ing looser....

 

[climbhappy]

that idea is one that looks good on paper...isn't the real issue or fact that ALPA has no cards left to play?

How could any logic be conveyed with a walkout to MGT who would shrug and say" i don't know what those poor bastards are doing," There are several legacy carriers in bankruptsy!"

So, what to do? i think the over capacity in the regionals will actually bring a few of them to BK and when that area is reduced then higher mainline jobs with better salaries become more abundant and the chance to really get there is increased.

Aren't you really asking, "how dow we make more money? It can't be a reality in a fifty seater. Delta has proven that.

 

[HalinTexas]

If we had a national seniority list based on your original ATP issuance, seniority won't be an issue.

Sort of like the Merchant Marines.

Nah, that's too easy, and ALPO will lose all its power.

 

[labbats]

If we had a national seniority list based on your original ATP issuance, seniority won't be an issue.

Sort of like the Merchant Marines.

Nah, that's too easy, and ALPO will lose all its power.

I hear national seniority list thrown around a lot, like it's the answer. I used to think so for a while too. But consider this... if you're at Northwest or Delta, and you get furloughed, even with a national seniority list, what's to stop another carrier from hiring someone junior to you? What's to stop them from avoiding hiring 20 year captains and using 5 year captains instead? You're in the street either way.

 

[Deli Guy]

Did we just sit around when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?...........................................

 

[RJones]

Funny, my father (UAL retired) proposed this idea back in the early seventies.

 

[HalinTexas]

Makes it easier to leave by choice, and not have to take a big hit.

I'm about to start my 8th year at ATA. Can't match that pay in the first year anywhere, but FEDEX and SWA get me back to it quicker.

If there is a requirment to have an ATP before you get hired at any 121 carrier, that could help dwindle the applicant pool.

I would imagine there would be very few 20 year captains willingly leave any given airline, so I doubt that would ever be an issue. At any rate, let them. They still pay them based on their national seniority. The point is to keep your pay rate, longevity, and relative seniority to everyone else, if you are qualified. This way a qualified B737 Captain, or whatever, can leave airline A for airline B Captain position and keep their pay rate.

Work rules, retirement, per diem could vary from airline to airline, but pay rates for a given make and model remain unchanged.

 

[HalinTexas]

The idea was initially proposed back in the '30's I believe and neither managment nor labor liked it.

Model it after the merchant marines. It won't work exactly, but modify it until it does.

 

[TWA Dude]

AA717, its guys like you that screw this industry up, your a *&%$ing looser....

What's that old expression about judging others lest ye be judged? AA717Driver has been in this business a lot longer than you or I and since I've flown with him I can vouch for the fact that he is not at all self-serving in his evaluation; he just sees things more clearly than you do.

A national walk-out day? Great idea; that'll show 'em.
-- It's illegal. Expect consequences from the courts.
-- If you haven't noticed our government is anti-union. Expect consequences. (think about what Senator McCain says)
-- The public isn't sympathetic. Times are tough for many sectors of the economy.

In other words, a national walk-out would not have the desired effect. Management is beating the unions today because it's losing so much money. ALPA is effed-up and needs a real leader but even that wouldn't be enough to cure our ills.

 

[~~~^~~~]

xjjet,

Im concerned for our careers, our profession, our industry of airline pilots. I cant believe there are pilots out there that are so self serving and vengeful that they would rather the ship go down than take an action to fix it...

AA717, its guys like you that screw this industry up, your a *&%$ing looser....

Apparently you have not been watching ALPA since it was hijacked by the Delta MEC for the last 30 years. I've only had a front row seat for 6 years. During that time they have blocked one list, blocked anyone's attempts to negotiate with mother Delta to secure scope. Lowered the scope limit from 105 to 70 seats, stormed out of negotiations which would have kept their junior guys from getting furloughed, traded away furlough protection, allowed super senior buddies to come back after they retired (keeping the furloughs on the street) and got ALPA involved in litigation it can not win and really can not even afford, and perhaps even planted the seeds by which ALPA will split in two (again) during the next 24 months.

AA717 is calling it like it is. A Nationwide walk out would not be in the interests of the 757/767 Captains who picked up a greenslip trip on that day. Further, Duane Woerth could get in trouble and he does not want to be the next multi millionaire in jail. I don't even know if he could actively trade his shares of ULICO in jail, could he?

ALPA has completely forgot that the purpose of a union is to bring pilots together to bargain collectively. Until the union returns to its core beliefs it will continue the slide towards a self interested club of Boeing widebody Captains who get drunk on our dues money. In the mean time management will continue to enjoy the lack of leadership in our National Union.

 

[Ty Webb]

AA717Driver has been in this business a lot longer than you or I and since I've flown with him I can vouch for the fact that he is not at all self-serving in his evaluation; he just sees things more clearly than you do.

That's not "more clearly" . . . it's just "more pessimistically".

A national walk-out day? Great idea; that'll show 'em.
-- It's illegal. Expect consequences from the courts.
-- If you haven't noticed our government is anti-union. Expect consequences. (think about what Senator McCain says)
-- The public isn't sympathetic. Times are tough for many sectors of the economy.

That's right. . . . much better to just sit there like a pig in a puddle of s#!t and watch your life go by.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

 

[BoilerUP]

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

While that's true, you must propose solutions that have a reasonable chance to be successful. Proposing an SOS as a solution to current problems is ludicrous not only because of the examples listed above, but because of those problem's underlying cause - LACK OF UNITY.

 

[Skyline]

Unity

How can you ever have unity when you got such a wide spread in pilot incomes? Try telling an 18K FO to sacrifice so a UPS 747 Captain can keep his fat pay check. Most of us know that we will never make it to a major so where is the benefit to us? My only hope is to become a scab for a good company someday. Perhaps if we leveled the playing field pilots industry wide would feel more compelled to support a national effort. Until then it is every man for themselves.

Skyline

 

[100LL... Again!]

The pilot group nationwide is too diverse in terms of pay and 'career expectations' to hope for any unity. Good luck getting the guys at the top to sacrifice anything for the CHANCE that there will be a long-term improvement

Here's an idea!!! Let's decimate the ranks! Let's throw everyone born on even-numbered days out of the profession. Now we will have a eral pilot shortage and we can finally start demanding "what we deserve" (hahahaha!).

 

[dbrownie]

My only hope is to become a scab for a good company someday.
Skyline

Your only hope??!!!
Here is a clue since you don't have one.

If you have to be a scab it is not a good company!!

I feel sorry for you.

Dave B

 

[100LL... Again!]

Skyline summed it up far better than I.

You can't get ryalty to take a hit for the peasants, and you'll only get the peasants to take a hit for royalty at gunpoint.

 

[TWA Dude]

That's right. . . . much better to just sit there like a pig in a puddle of s#!t and watch your life go by.

Oh, I see. So you advocate breaking the law thereby encouraging Congress to weaken the RLA. You advocate giving Management even more ammunition to use against those uppity pilots. Action is only good if you're smart about doing it.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Strange statement coming from somebody who isn't even an ALPA member. Like you really care about Delta pilots.

 

[Skyline]

Scab

Your only hope??!!!
Here is a clue since you don't have one.

If you have to be a scab it is not a good company!!

I feel sorry for you.

Dave B

You are probably right about that, but what else is there for the majority of us?

You should feel sorry for us. We are hungry and need a good job that has the potential as least to help support a family of 4. It is hard for me to have any sympathy for guys at UPS or FedEx. Rather than try for unity you should be heating up the oil and sharpening your arrows because the peasants will be storming the castle soon.

I'd like to post more but I have to leave for work.

Skyline

 

[AA717driver]

My point is that ALPA is done. They failed to adapt to changing times just like the management at the legacy carriers.

Why is it that only now we have a crisis? I guess to a Braniff pilot the crisis occurred in the early '80's. To an Eastern Captain who was age 52 in 1989, that was when the crisis happened. For me and my fellow TWA people, it was 2002.

This "crisis" has been happening for a couple of decades now and ALPA elected to do nothing. Now it's too late. The MEC's of the remaining carriers--both ALPA and independent, need to get together and form a new union. Hopefully, it will be based on doing what is good for the entire industry not just for their own personal career progression. If that happens, maybe--and it's only a very slim maybe, there will be an airline career for our kids to aspire to.

Our generation f-ed this up badly. We can get it back on track.TC

P.S.--Brown and Purple had better pay attention, too. As UAL, AA and Delta found out, no one is immune when management sets it mind to cutting you down.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Being disgusted as to what management is doing to labor unions nationwide, I have a proposal. ALPA should organize a nationwide walkout for 1 day. It's kind of like giving management a taste of their own medicine. Something has to be done to convey the message to management the 'race to the bottom' has to stop.

While I am glad to see some of the regional boys starting to try and stand up for something.

I am puzzeled why they did not do it before? You know, back when UsAir was being gutted, TWA, UAL, etc...

Oh wait.....thats right, back then mgmt. was busy gutting the mainlines and buying the regional boys a whole heap o new shiny jets to play with! I see, now that your rj's are being removed out from under you by other regionals that are undercutting you, you now want a nationwide action campaign.

About 4 years ago I got bashed on another webboard for bringing this fact up, back then I told those guys that is was only a matter of time before they were the ones targeted, and if it kept up their chances of ever seeing a mainline in their career was quickly dissappearing. I believe his exact response to me was (coming from a 25 year old new RJ Capt.), "Your time is over old man, your kind is a dinosaur, get out of the way." Funny how a few years and approaching 30 years old will change a fellows point of view!


OK Rant over, At least it is nice that the regional guys are starting to see that what happens to one section of the industry affect all of us sooner or later.

Complete integration of all regional carriers into the parent company's seniority list is the only way to solve this problem. However I think the window of oppertunity on that is far past.

 

[FN FAL]

-- It's illegal. Expect consequences from the courts.

Yea, a "walk out" would be illegal for the Union to do...but if every body just up and walked off the job and quit, the courts couldn't do anything to you.

 

[BoilerUP]

Yea, a "walk out" would be illegal for the Union to do...but if every body just up and walked off the job and quit, the courts couldn't do anything to you.

I actually advocated that on another thread. If on the first day of BlowJets revenue operations the TSA MEC Chairman had walked the resignations (effective immediately) of every TSA pilot into Uncle Hulie, ALPA would have instantly had Trans States, TSA Holdings, GJ, etc by the nads because there's no way to cover that flying and its definately not illegal to quit a job.

Such an action would be lauded on these boards as TSA pilots would have taken the ultimate stand to become martyrs for the profession. It would have been the ultimate game of chicken to which Hulas would have capitulated or folded his operation. Unfortunately, suggesting such an action is unrealistic, as you cannot reasonably expect people with families and liabilities to up and quit their jobs en masse in protest...and TSA pilots are more united than most.

 

[FN FAL]

I actually advocated that on another thread. If on the first day of BlowJets revenue operations the TSA MEC Chairman had walked the resignations (effective immediately) of every TSA pilot into Uncle Hulie, ALPA would have instantly had Trans States, TSA Holdings, GJ, etc by the nads because there's no way to cover that flying and its definately not illegal to quit a job.

Such an action would be lauded on these boards as TSA pilots would have taken the ultimate stand to become martyrs for the profession. It would have been the ultimate game of chicken to which Hulas would have capitulated or folded his operation. Unfortunately, suggesting such an action is unrealistic, as you cannot reasonably expect people with families and liabilities to up and quit their jobs en masse in protest...and TSA pilots are more united than most.

It would be career suicide, no doubt.

 

[Mr Hat]

We got this all wrong. We don't need a national seniority list, that would cause more problems than it would solve. I do think that way before that should happen the unions should push for single lists among certain brands. Example, CAL/XJET one list, DAL and everyone that feeds them one list, NWA, AAL, UAL, USAir and their respective regionals, one list.

The true problem here is the RJ. I am an RJ captain however, I can see where the problem lies. Now some might say that if the problem is the RJ, then the RJ pilots are to blams....wrong. The real people who dropped the ball are the pilots at the majors who ALLOWED those "Turbo props without props" to be operated by the regionals in the first place. I can totally see why they made that decision though, managments of the US airlines lulled everyone into a false sense of security. "It's only an RJ, it's just a turbo prop without props, it's not a threat to your jobs besides who wants to go back to flying a turbo-prop without props anyway" SOOOOOO the Major airline pilots of America said "Okay fine, you can operate those airplanes at the regionals" with varying rules.

These RJ's came online with their turbo prop pay and did "regional" type flying. But a few years later, as they proved themselves those airplanes started to replace DC9 routes, then 737 routes and now there is a glut of RJ's and all bets are off. They fly the same routes as the mainline aircraft but are still being paid turbo prop pay.

Now here's the clincher. The major airline pilots and ALPA national never gave much thought to regional pilot pay....."Pay your dues kid! I did!" was the phrase. The problem is that all airline pilots are connected on these issues, hence the reason for ALPA national in the first place. It took some time but eventually management realized that if these RJ pilots will work for X, so will the 737 guys and so on.

One of the negotiating issues we had at XJet in 2000 was that we wanted our pay to be in line with CAL. Meaning that we wanted to use the same method of paying CAL aircraft applied to the RJ instead of the ATR method.
We fell short of what we thought was "in-line" with CAL pay in 2000 but then CAL took concessions and guess what, We are now paid in line with CAL but they came down to us, not us up to them.

The same thing has happened all over the industry, the RJ pilots aren't so severly underpaid anymore because the majors have all taken concessions and come down to our level. Interpolate from the 737 down and the RJ's should be in line with major airline pay.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't blame the pilots of the major airlines in the 90's who allowed RJ's at the regionals. There was no way to know that this would happen....in fact if you went back in time and told them, they wouldn't believe you. Conversly you can't blame the RJ pilots, we are all pawns in the same game.
The RJ paved the way to water down pilot compensation levels. 9/11 accelerated that watering down and gas prices are now pushing it further. Soon, RJ's will start to go away but replacing those RJs will be E190's which will further degrade the industry pay because a precident has already been made by paying those pilots flying anything Embraer at turbo prop rates....(Don't believe me? The E190 and E170 are comparable to a 737 and DC 9 respectivly....look at the difference in pay!)

What ALPA national needs to do is set minimum equipment rates and refuse to sign any contract that violates those rates. Its the only way to stop people from trying to cut their brothers heads off in "Pilot pay fare wars"

Just my opinion.

 

[TWA Dude]

Yea, a "walk out" would be illegal for the Union to do...but if every body just up and walked off the job and quit, the courts couldn't do anything to you.

Time to lead by example, buddy.

 

[Ty Webb]

Oh, I see. So you advocate breaking the law thereby encouraging Congress to weaken the RLA.

You don't seem to get it, Chief. It's not illegal. It's not a union position, it's a common-sense grass-roots reaction. A nationwide "Sick Out" because we're "Sick of It". We're not chipping in for gas money. The Airlines are going to have to manage their way out of their problems, and cutting pilot pay further isn;t an option, period. Raise fares, and manage intelligently. Stop raiding the coffers and bailing with golden parachutes.

Strange statement coming from somebody who isn't even an ALPA member.

You're right I'm not an ALPA member. I'm a pilot . . A pilot with a brain, and some stones. What are you? Apparently, a beaten-down person who is content to just take it and take it.

Like you really care about Delta pilots.

Sure I do. Because we are all in this together- something you don't seem to get. Maybe after two more pay cuts and/or another pink slip the curtain will lift, and all will be made clear for you. Me, I see it now.


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