National Seniority Protocol

[DoinTime]

For my money, total time at a union 121 carriers makes the most sense.

If carriers with representation other than ALPA are willing to reciprocate on equal terms with "the list" I bet they will be included. If not, you can bet them being excluded. The thought of time served outside of this industry being counted is completely ridiculous as well.

 

[dh82dvr]

I didn't read all the posts but what about date of commercial licence or military equivalent for entry to the seniority list, however min experience will still determine if you are hired anywhere.

 

[flyboyike]

Nationwide cock block is more like it. Be careful what you wish for you might get it.

Amen.

 

[CEO silly sap]

Let's pretend for a moment that this system was in place and UAL furloughs, say, 3000 and enters bankruptcy. Of these pilots, let's say 2000 want to stay in aviation and 1500 want to take advantage of this concept. Of the airlines that are hiring right now, how many are ALPA carriers?

Delta (possibly)
Pinnacle maybe
ASA ?
Air Canada Jazz ?
Air Midwest no
Air Transat ?
Air Wisconsin ?
Alaska no
Aloha Island Air - sure
American Eagle no
ASTAR Air Cargo ?
Atlantic Southeast ?
Atlas Air Cargo ?
Comair No
CommutAir ?
Continental no
ExpressJet no
FedEx no
Freedom Airlines no
Gemini Air Cargo ?
Hawaiian no
Mesa Airlines no
Mesaba possibly
Midwest Airlines ?
Polar Air Cargo ?
PSA ?
Ryan ?
Spirit no
Trans States Airlines no

Of these carriers, how many have comparable pay vacancies? ie Captain slots? Are there 1500 positions among these carriers? How many experienced pilots are on the street now?

What if you were paid by the longevity instead of they type of aircraft. what if all the regionals had the same contract... similar to parity plus one percent back in the day. what would happen then?

 

[Jetpipeovht]

I didn't read all the posts but what about date of commercial licence or military equivalent for entry to the seniority list, however min experience will still determine if you are hired anywhere.

Date of Commercial License issue is the most fair, IMO. Not all career pilots have an ATP.

For you military folks that crossed over to CIVILIAN aviation? It would be the date you crossed over or converted your license.

Military seniority (not experience, ability, knowledge..that would count for you getting a job of course) BUT YOUR SENIORITY does not mean SH*T in the Civilian world, IMO. Unless the Military can reciprocate.

My 2 cents.

 

[knightflyer]

Why isn't this a sticky on the Majors Forum? :bomb:

 

[lookin4better]

Why isn't this a sticky on the Majors Forum? :bomb:

Because they know it wont happen .... over here its a pipe dream... never going to happen. Interesting debate though.... i guess.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If one wants a NSL, then one has to argue why managment will agree to it... or how will a NSL have to be structured for mgmnt to agree to it....

 

[Nevets]

If one wants a NSL, then one has to argue why managment will agree to it... or how will a NSL have to be structured for mgmnt to agree to it....

Yeah, its probably going to take self help to get anything like this.

 

[pilotyip]

Why would management care?

Yeah, its probably going to take self help to get anything like this, If one wants a NSL, then one has to argue why managment will agree to it... or how will a NSL have to be structured for mgmnt to agree to it....

An union airline has an open seat for an A-320 Captain. Go to Union's NSL, pick the next in line, pay him for equipment and time on the list. Makes no difference to them who fills the seat, the cost is the same. Except for those new non-union airlines that don't believe in a NSL.

 

[michael707767]

DOH from your first 121 carrier.

I'm curious. Given that two arbitrations looking at fairly similar airlines have failed to produce a DOH list, how do you think you would ever get a national DOH list?

 

[AutoBus]

An union airline has an open seat for an A-320 Captain. Go to Union's NSL, pick the next in line, pay him for equipment and time on the list. Makes no difference to them who fills the seat, the cost is the same. Except for those new non-union airlines that don't believe in a NSL.

This is about the most idiotic proposal I have EVER seen!


What if the guy is an incompetent a-hole? Your going to force someone to take him?

 

[livin'thesim]

The problem with DOH at first 121 carrier, or DOH at first 121 carrier is that pilots could game the system by working a year at a low-end 121 outfit flying 19-seaters, then move to corporate for years, only to cash in the seniority number later when it holds a good enough seat.

Time spent working OR furloughed from a 121 carrier makes more sense.

You can't game out getting furloughed all that easily, and it is no fault of the pilot.

But you can see real opportunity for shenanigans if you went straight DOH.

 

[pilotyip]

Bypass ability

The problem with DOH at first 121 carrier, or DOH at first 121 carrier is that pilots could game the system by working a year at a low-end 121 outfit flying 19-seaters, then move to corporate for years, only to cash in the seniority number later when it holds a good enough seat.

Time spent working OR furloughed from a 121 carrier makes more sense.

You can't game out getting furloughed all that easily, and it is no fault of the pilot.

But you can see real opportunity for shenanigans if you went straight DOH.

If I get that good corp job while furloughed, can I bypass a job at a 121 carrier until I can hold A-320 PIC.

 

[livin'thesim]

I would think yes.

Getting a DOH somewhere and bailing is within a pilot's control.

Getting furloughed is usually not.

If you are senior enough that you could pick voluntary furlough, then you are probably senior enough that you could not game the system.

The problem is that no matter the method, some get a windfall and even worse, some get screwed badly.


What would be a terrible solution is date of commercial cert or ATP.


Further complications involve carriers that close down. Do we treat those pilots as furloughs? Or do we stop their clock?

Do we stop the clock on furloughees?

That means that a low-time PFT pilot could be gaining on and passing high-time dedicated professionals.


The boat probably sailed a long time ago on an NSL.

During the good times, no one feels a need to put this in place, and in bad times it is to easy to see it as a seniority grab.

When there are already so many furloughed, who wants to agree to move even further down the list for someone else's benefit?


The only way we will ever get a national list is if powerful political interests force it through as an act of congress, otherwise you are more likely to be able to solve middle eastern or Irish political wars.