National Seniority Protocol

[PCL_128]

Spicepilot,

The resolution is for establishing seniority, not longevity. No airline would EVER give in to paying for another airline's longevity. No NMB would EVER release a pilot group for self-help with other airline longevity on the table. And finally, no U.S. Government entity would stand for the national transportation system to be shut down due to labor strikes at that level. Even ALPA knows they won't acheive longevity protection.

You are wrong, my friend. ALPA has already been working on a longevity system that the regional MECs have all been discussing for making longevity portable. This has been in the works for about a year. Portable longevity would be negotiated into each contract. You claim that the NMB would never go for it, but that depends on who's NMB you're talking about. Yes, the McBush NMB never would, but an Obama NMB quite possibly would.

 

[GeekMaster]

I would imagine this would be a catalyst for airline management to accelerate the shift of flying from majors to regionals. Why not downsize mainline flying and send those 20yr payscale pilots down to the regionals to start over at yr 1 pay.

I liked the idea of a universal start date (like Jan 1 2009) for a NSL to start and everyone being equal and starting to accrue seniority from that day forward. No it wouldnt be a quick fix, but usually the quick resolutions are the ones that come back to bite us later. Is this proposal from UAL so they can look out for themselves specifically? Or the industry as a whole?

Even with a universal start date, you have to establish some kind of an exact order. Two pilots cannot have exactly the same seniority number. If a seat bid comes open somewhere, there has to be an exact number to determine exactly which pilot gets the seat. The debate is how to determine that exact order without totally screwing the regional pilots. The resolution itself references "career benchmarks" to do that (read-regional pilots haven't acheived the same career benchmark and therefore get less seniority credit). Also, the resolution spells out how the committee will be appointed to work out the seniority formula. In it's present form, regionals would have a decided minority on that committe and therefore unable to stand up for themselves.

UAL "claims" it's for the good of the industry, but make no mistake, it's job insurance for them.

 

[GeekMaster]

You are wrong, my friend. ALPA has already been working on a longevity system that the regional MECs have all been discussing for making longevity portable. This has been in the works for about a year. Portable longevity would be negotiated into each contract. You claim that the NMB would never go for it, but that depends on who's NMB you're talking about. Yes, the McBush NMB never would, but an Obama NMB quite possibly would.

I'd bet a month's pay I'm not wrong. No doubt ALPA might like it but you and everyone else knows that Airline Managements would fight to their last breath. You would basically be telling each airline that they have to pay higher labor cost due to the bad decisions and mismanagement of other airlines. That would actually be big enough to get laws changed....even under Obama.

 

[Flyby1206]

Seems like a thickening of the line between majors and regionals. An "Us vs Them" mindset isnt a way to run a Union in my opinion.

 

[Poahi]

ALPA has already been working on a longevity system ...Portable longevity would be negotiated into each contract.

That's why I say the only way for something like that to work is if ALPA leased pilots to the airlines. Then the internal issue of what each pilot would be paid (and domiciled) by ALPA would be settled within the Assciation and would certainly be a thorny isssue.

Are you suggesting the NMB would force this on the airlines? Why would the airlines go for something like that? And if UAL reduced their workforce dramatically, why wouldn't FedEX, Hawaiian and others attempt to decertify ALPA the next day?

I am all for stabilizing our careers, but many of the ideas I'm hearing are like one way check valves.

 

[GeekMaster]

That's why I say the only way for something like that to work is if ALPA leased pilots to the airlines. Then the internal issue of what each pilot would be paid (and domiciled) by ALPA would be settled within the Assciation and would certainly be a thorny isssue.

Are you suggesting the NMB would force this on the airlines? Why would the airlines go for something like that? And if UAL reduced their workforce dramatically, why wouldn't FedEX, Hawaiian and others attempt to decertify ALPA the next day?

I am all for stabilizing our careers, but many of the ideas I'm hearing are like one way check valves.

Yep! and that's why this resolution is going to fail and fail miserably. It won't even be well received by the other majors.

 

[Poahi]

This is just an observation, but I smell the sweet fragrance of irony. In order to protect the seniority the top at the majors' lists, they want to reclaim the seniority at the regionals they shed 15 years ago, except, of course, if it affects the seniority at the top of the majors' lists. What's mine is mine and what's yours is mine ought to be the title of the resolution.

And no comment from UAL pilots?

 

[PCL_128]

Are you suggesting the NMB would force this on the airlines?

No, the NMB doesn't force anything on anyone. I'm saying that a more pro-labor NMB appointed by a Democrat would quite possibly allow a release into self-help over such an issue. That's not "forcing" the airlines to do anything, that's just allowing labor and management to work out their issues as intended by the RLA.

 

[GeekMaster]

No, the NMB doesn't force anything on anyone. I'm saying that a more pro-labor NMB appointed by a Democrat would quite possibly allow a release into self-help over such an issue. That's not "forcing" the airlines to do anything, that's just allowing labor and management to work out their issues as intended by the RLA.

I understand what you're saying but there is a significant problem here. A pilot group is asking it's airline to PAY for the sins and mismanagement of another airline against which it competes. In otherwords, if UAL goes TU, Delta will have to pay every new hire 10 to 20 year wages for the next few years. You want Congress to reform the RLA? That'll do it.

 

[PCL_128]

In otherwords, if UAL goes TU, Delta will have to pay every new hire 10 to 20 year wages for the next few years.

Every other airline would have to do the same, eliminating any competitive problems. All airlines would be stuck with the same system. Yes, DAL would be paying 12 year wages to all new hires, but so would CAL, ALA, etc...