National Seniority list

[kngarthur]

Is this possible? Would we want it?

 

[FreedomAList]

Every 121 pilot with 20 years wet dream.

Everyone elses worst nightmare.

Hell, let's just nationalize the airlines into one big carrier, pay government wages (suck) and bill the taxpayer for lousy service, high fares, and a total lack of innovation.

While we're at it, let's just nationalize everything and let the state plan everything acording to a 5 year plan for the Great Leap Forward.

Sheesh.

 

[Flechas]

Dream on.....

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Every 121 pilot with 20 years wet dream.

Everyone elses worst nightmare.

Hell, let's just nationalize the airlines into one big carrier, pay government wages (suck) and bill the taxpayer for lousy service, high fares, and a total lack of innovation.

While we're at it, let's just nationalize everything and let the state plan everything acording to a 5 year plan for the Great Leap Forward.

Sheesh.

Not that I advocate the government taking over the air transportation system......but every government flying job I know pays much better than RJ rates.

Go to FAA.gov and look at the DEA,FAA,ATF etc.. pilot openings. Not to mention the government pensions and bennies.

Government run...No Government salaries.....that would be a raise for 90% of the RJ drivers out there.

 

[kngarthur]

Every 121 pilot with 20 years wet dream.

Everyone elses worst nightmare.

Hell, let's just nationalize the airlines into one big carrier, pay government wages (suck) and bill the taxpayer for lousy service, high fares, and a total lack of innovation.

While we're at it, let's just nationalize everything and let the state plan everything acording to a 5 year plan for the Great Leap Forward.

Sheesh.

Exactly! I heard some pilots say we need this! I was just wondering if anyone else thought it was communist.

 

[atrdriver]

Hell, let's just nationalize the airlines into one big carrier, pay government wages (suck) and bill the taxpayer for lousy service, high fares, and a total lack of innovation.

Pay might suck, might not, but they will have a guaranteed pension when they retire, which is a LOT more than most us will be able to say.

 

[ackattacker]

Exactly! I heard some pilots say we need this! I was just wondering if anyone else thought it was communist.

Communist? Then I guess machinists, plumbers, automotive technicians, etc. are communist. You get your union card, and your experience gains you higher levels of certification which you can take with you from job to job.

The current system of seniority is completely unique to the airline world. If I had 10 years of experience as a forklift operator, then I could easily quit my job and go work for somebody else for equal or possibly greater wages. It is this threat which forces companies to keep their wages competitive or risk losing all their workers.

The system for the airlines removes the element of free market - I think that's what's communist. An airline can slash your wages and benefits to near nothing, but nobody dares quit because you'd have to start again at the bottom somewhere else. I don't see how we put up with it.

 

[ArcticFlier]

There's a difference between a guild (which is what is being talked about here), and a government run system.

Seems to me, a guild would remove labor cost from the overall cost equation. Might actually shine the spotlight where it belongs: On management's ability (or lack thereof) to run an airline.

Your retirement would be portable from company to company

You wouldn't have to start over at the bottom of another seniority list

Pay would be based on your number within the guild, not the airline.

On and on.

But alas, a wet dream.




AF

 

[blueridge71]

A national airline would cause a lot of flying jobs to disappear because there would be no competition or redundant capacity (i.e. there would only be one airline flying a route instead of half a dozen). I'd say that is a bad thing.

I did have a crashpad mate who had a good suggestion for a seniority list. It's basically a guild where you get a number and get hired in order of that number. If furloughed, you take a new job in seniority order.

The big problem that I see is that furloughed major airline pilots would most likely not want to take what would probably be the first opening, a regional FO slot. Additionally, I see problems with a common pay scale since airlines are in vastly different financial situations, none of them good.

 

[ArcticFlier]

A national airline would cause a lot of flying jobs to disappear because there would be no competition or redundant capacity (i.e. there would only be one airline flying a route instead of half a dozen). I'd say that is a bad thing.

I did have a crashpad mate who had a good suggestion for a seniority list. It's basically a guild where you get a number and get hired in order of that number. If furloughed, you take a new job in seniority order.

The big problem that I see is that furloughed major airline pilots would most likely not want to take what would probably be the first opening, a regional FO slot. Additionally, I see problems with a common pay scale since airlines are in vastly different financial situations, none of them good.

The original post wasn't about a national airline. It's titled National Seniority List.

When I'm king , the first opening, be it an FO slot or whatever would still pay you based on your seniority within the guild, not what seat you are in.

There would still be competition, just not between companies to see who's labor cost is the lowest.


AF

 

[wms]

There's a difference between a guild (which is what is being talked about here), and a government run system.

Seems to me, a guild would remove labor cost from the overall cost equation. Might actually shine the spotlight where it belongs: On management's ability (or lack thereof) to run an airline.

Your retirement would be portable from company to company

You wouldn't have to start over at the bottom of another seniority list

Pay would be based on your number within the guild, not the airline.

On and on.

But alas, a wet dream.




AF

Also what goes up can go down. You could be bumped onto the street by a pilot whose company went out of business.

 

[ArcticFlier]

Also what goes up can go down. You could be bumped onto the street by a pilot whose company went out of business.

No. Training costs would go through the roof. You would have to wait for an opening. No job bumping.

AF

 

[viper548]

The airlines would probably pay more to keep people from leaving and running training costs up. I like the idea

 

[FlyFlyFly]

Great Thread! Thanks for keeping it top of mind why I would never even consider flying for an airline...

 

[hbrow15]

why would an airline bring in a pilot at 10 year pay when they can get a newbie at 1st year pay? because he is more experienced? because we know how important the safety experience brings is more important to management than getting it done on the cheap...see NWA

 

[ArcticFlier]

why would an airline bring in a pilot at 10 year pay when they can get a newbie at 1st year pay? because he is more experienced? because we know how important the safety experience brings is more important to management than getting it done on the cheap...see NWA

Because if we did this right, they would have no choice. You want a pilot? Here's the list.

Before anyone says, "well they'll just get around the guild and get a job." Why? First year pay is first year pay. Why screw up a career by going around the guild for a job you would get anyway?


AF

 

[Panda]

Here's an idea,

Let's have a real ATP written test with no kidding all the classroom academics akin to a JAA certification. Not only will that get our FAA tickets recognized and therefore enable us to purse positions overseas, but it will also limit the number of folks that become professional airline pilots.

Research has indicated that the supply of labor, more than anything else, is the driving factor in a natural increase/decrease of wages. A union creates a barrier to entry, sort to speak, and therefore limits the supply of labor. However, our union does not create that barrier. We don't require folks to go through an apprenticeship program (perhaps flight instructing and other time-building employment) in the traditional sense. And the fact that 500 hr bridge programs exist do not help the profession since the traditional flight building path has been bypassed.

Lets put some academics (of course grandfather all us that are in good standing) in our profession and watch the growth of the supply of pilots, at least possibly, slow down...and in the long-run, reverse the current wage trends.

My $0.02

 

[viper548]

Why not just make that the requirement for the commercial multi?

 

[Nindiri]

Legal problems aside, a national senority list would lead to some interesting situations. For example, Captains making less than half what their FO is making, senior pilots going from company to company cherry-picking the best jobs at the expense of other pilots who have worked hard.

Beware the law of unintended consequences.

 

[727gm]

And who gets on the list in what order? 25 year veteran of numerous non-union or foreign airlines that has only been ALPA for one year getting put junior to a 23 year-old Mesa 1900 captain because he's been ALPA for 2 years? Not a good idea unless EVERYONE started at about the same age.

 

[atrdriver]

Legal problems aside, a national senority list would lead to some interesting situations. For example, Captains making less than half what their FO is making, senior pilots going from company to company cherry-picking the best jobs at the expense of other pilots who have worked hard.

Beware the law of unintended consequences.

No, if you went to another carrier, you would still have to work your way up their seniority list, but your pay would not be based on that, it would be based on total time with the "guild". So a senior DAL captain wouldn't go to NWA, because even if the Captain payrates were better at NWA, he would be getting 20 or 25 year FO pay, because he would start as an FO at the new airline.

 

[Nindiri]

So who gets to say where a pilot can go to work at? Him or the union?

 

[ArcticFlier]

So who gets to say where a pilot can go to work at? Him or the union?

Your choice based on your number.


AF

 

[Nindiri]

Can you voluntarily wait until an opening comes that you want, or must you choose from whatever happens to be available at the time?

 

[J32driver]

ArcticFlier... you are right on with this. I've been thinking about it for a while. How about this for some rules. Some are painful, but thats what it will take.

First....divide the flying jobs into 2 different levels... majors/LCC/Large Cargo as one... and the regionals as the other.

Now... all sins must be forgiven... all Union and Non-Union pilots who are currently employed by a part 121 carrier are combined in a National Seniority list by Date of Hire (ties broken by birth date) with their current airline. Whallah...ONE LIST with TWO LEVELS.

Now the hard work is done, heres how this thing will function as a national system:

A brand new pilot must choose a regional company to work for. Once he chooses, he stays with that company until his national seniority can hold him a spot at the "Majors" level, OR he is furloughed from the regional. If he is furloughed, then he has the right to bump into wherever his National Seniority can hold him.

Works the same way at the Majors level. No company hopping! Pick a career track with the company you want and hope for the best. If you are furloughed.... then and only then do you have the right to bump into another company.

Heres the kicker that might make the Airlines buy off on it. The "Guild" must pick up the tab for ALL inititial training when a seniority bump happens. Upgrade, transition, and recurrent training are still at the cost of the airline. But initial training is being caused by the "Guild" if seniority bumping occurs.

The national contract is something entirely different.... but it must be common among all companies. No more beating us up because the undeducated 300 hour CFI's will work for free!


OK... enough out of me... back to the crackpipe.

 

[Bdfg1]

Is this possible? Would we want it?

Go to bed junior

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Who is going to pay for a National Seniority list?

 

[J32driver]

Who is going to pay for a National Seniority list?

We all are!

It would take an agreement or merger of every single Union and Non-Union carrier group out there. ALPA, Teamsters, APA....

It won't work unless every single pilot in the country only offers their services through the national "guild". We know that pilots are lo-life bottom feeders and won't do that on their own. Its therefore up to some organization to force it. And I have no idea how to make that happen.

 

[Nindiri]

How are you going to force them? If a group of pilots doesn't want to be part of this guild or national senority list, and an airline is willing to hire them instead of guild members, how would you stop it?

 

[ArcticFlier]

How do you stop a pilot from crossing a picket line? There would be no difference than the way it works now.

BTW ties would have to be broken by something random like the last four numbers of your SSN. Someone would scream about age discrimination or something.


AF