National Seniority list

kngarthur

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Is this possible? Would we want it?
 

FreedomAList

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Every 121 pilot with 20 years wet dream.

Everyone elses worst nightmare.

Hell, let's just nationalize the airlines into one big carrier, pay government wages (suck) and bill the taxpayer for lousy service, high fares, and a total lack of innovation.

While we're at it, let's just nationalize everything and let the state plan everything acording to a 5 year plan for the Great Leap Forward.

Sheesh.
 

KeroseneSnorter

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FreedomAList said:
Every 121 pilot with 20 years wet dream.

Everyone elses worst nightmare.

Hell, let's just nationalize the airlines into one big carrier, pay government wages (suck) and bill the taxpayer for lousy service, high fares, and a total lack of innovation.

While we're at it, let's just nationalize everything and let the state plan everything acording to a 5 year plan for the Great Leap Forward.

Sheesh.

Not that I advocate the government taking over the air transportation system......but every government flying job I know pays much better than RJ rates.

Go to FAA.gov and look at the DEA,FAA,ATF etc.. pilot openings. Not to mention the government pensions and bennies.

Government run...No Government salaries.....that would be a raise for 90% of the RJ drivers out there.
 

kngarthur

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FreedomAList said:
Every 121 pilot with 20 years wet dream.

Everyone elses worst nightmare.

Hell, let's just nationalize the airlines into one big carrier, pay government wages (suck) and bill the taxpayer for lousy service, high fares, and a total lack of innovation.

While we're at it, let's just nationalize everything and let the state plan everything acording to a 5 year plan for the Great Leap Forward.

Sheesh.

Exactly! I heard some pilots say we need this! I was just wondering if anyone else thought it was communist.
 

atrdriver

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FreedomAList said:
Hell, let's just nationalize the airlines into one big carrier, pay government wages (suck) and bill the taxpayer for lousy service, high fares, and a total lack of innovation.

Pay might suck, might not, but they will have a guaranteed pension when they retire, which is a LOT more than most us will be able to say.
 

ackattacker

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kngarthur said:
Exactly! I heard some pilots say we need this! I was just wondering if anyone else thought it was communist.

Communist? Then I guess machinists, plumbers, automotive technicians, etc. are communist. You get your union card, and your experience gains you higher levels of certification which you can take with you from job to job.

The current system of seniority is completely unique to the airline world. If I had 10 years of experience as a forklift operator, then I could easily quit my job and go work for somebody else for equal or possibly greater wages. It is this threat which forces companies to keep their wages competitive or risk losing all their workers.

The system for the airlines removes the element of free market - I think that's what's communist. An airline can slash your wages and benefits to near nothing, but nobody dares quit because you'd have to start again at the bottom somewhere else. I don't see how we put up with it.
 

ArcticFlier

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There's a difference between a guild (which is what is being talked about here), and a government run system.

Seems to me, a guild would remove labor cost from the overall cost equation. Might actually shine the spotlight where it belongs: On management's ability (or lack thereof) to run an airline.

Your retirement would be portable from company to company

You wouldn't have to start over at the bottom of another seniority list

Pay would be based on your number within the guild, not the airline.

On and on.

But alas, a wet dream.




AF :cool:
 
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blueridge71

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A national airline would cause a lot of flying jobs to disappear because there would be no competition or redundant capacity (i.e. there would only be one airline flying a route instead of half a dozen). I'd say that is a bad thing.

I did have a crashpad mate who had a good suggestion for a seniority list. It's basically a guild where you get a number and get hired in order of that number. If furloughed, you take a new job in seniority order.

The big problem that I see is that furloughed major airline pilots would most likely not want to take what would probably be the first opening, a regional FO slot. Additionally, I see problems with a common pay scale since airlines are in vastly different financial situations, none of them good.
 

ArcticFlier

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blueridge71 said:
A national airline would cause a lot of flying jobs to disappear because there would be no competition or redundant capacity (i.e. there would only be one airline flying a route instead of half a dozen). I'd say that is a bad thing.

I did have a crashpad mate who had a good suggestion for a seniority list. It's basically a guild where you get a number and get hired in order of that number. If furloughed, you take a new job in seniority order.

The big problem that I see is that furloughed major airline pilots would most likely not want to take what would probably be the first opening, a regional FO slot. Additionally, I see problems with a common pay scale since airlines are in vastly different financial situations, none of them good.

The original post wasn't about a national airline. It's titled National Seniority List.

When I'm king :D, the first opening, be it an FO slot or whatever would still pay you based on your seniority within the guild, not what seat you are in.

There would still be competition, just not between companies to see who's labor cost is the lowest.


AF :cool:
 
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wms

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ArcticFlier said:
There's a difference between a guild (which is what is being talked about here), and a government run system.

Seems to me, a guild would remove labor cost from the overall cost equation. Might actually shine the spotlight where it belongs: On management's ability (or lack thereof) to run an airline.

Your retirement would be portable from company to company

You wouldn't have to start over at the bottom of another seniority list

Pay would be based on your number within the guild, not the airline.

On and on.

But alas, a wet dream.




AF :cool:

Also what goes up can go down. You could be bumped onto the street by a pilot whose company went out of business.
 

ArcticFlier

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wms said:
Also what goes up can go down. You could be bumped onto the street by a pilot whose company went out of business.

No. Training costs would go through the roof. You would have to wait for an opening. No job bumping.

AF :cool:
 
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viper548

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The airlines would probably pay more to keep people from leaving and running training costs up. I like the idea
 

FlyFlyFly

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Great Thread! Thanks for keeping it top of mind why I would never even consider flying for an airline...
 

hbrow15

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why would an airline bring in a pilot at 10 year pay when they can get a newbie at 1st year pay? because he is more experienced? because we know how important the safety experience brings is more important to management than getting it done on the cheap...see NWA
 

ArcticFlier

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hbrow15 said:
why would an airline bring in a pilot at 10 year pay when they can get a newbie at 1st year pay? because he is more experienced? because we know how important the safety experience brings is more important to management than getting it done on the cheap...see NWA

Because if we did this right, they would have no choice. You want a pilot? Here's the list.

Before anyone says, "well they'll just get around the guild and get a job." Why? First year pay is first year pay. Why screw up a career by going around the guild for a job you would get anyway?


AF :cool:
 

Panda

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Here's an idea,

Let's have a real ATP written test with no kidding all the classroom academics akin to a JAA certification. Not only will that get our FAA tickets recognized and therefore enable us to purse positions overseas, but it will also limit the number of folks that become professional airline pilots.

Research has indicated that the supply of labor, more than anything else, is the driving factor in a natural increase/decrease of wages. A union creates a barrier to entry, sort to speak, and therefore limits the supply of labor. However, our union does not create that barrier. We don't require folks to go through an apprenticeship program (perhaps flight instructing and other time-building employment) in the traditional sense. And the fact that 500 hr bridge programs exist do not help the profession since the traditional flight building path has been bypassed.

Lets put some academics (of course grandfather all us that are in good standing) in our profession and watch the growth of the supply of pilots, at least possibly, slow down...and in the long-run, reverse the current wage trends.

My $0.02
 

Nindiri

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Legal problems aside, a national senority list would lead to some interesting situations. For example, Captains making less than half what their FO is making, senior pilots going from company to company cherry-picking the best jobs at the expense of other pilots who have worked hard.

Beware the law of unintended consequences.
 

727gm

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And who gets on the list in what order? 25 year veteran of numerous non-union or foreign airlines that has only been ALPA for one year getting put junior to a 23 year-old Mesa 1900 captain because he's been ALPA for 2 years? Not a good idea unless EVERYONE started at about the same age.
 
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