National Seniority ist article

[FBN0223]

Sorry. All those that got hired at United with the ink still wet on their commercial license and 300 hours back in the early 90s wouldn't fit in at Delta.

Actually I don't think they really even fit a UAL. A friend of mine who instructs at TK says a high percentage can't check out in the left seat even after flying the line for 15 plus years.

Ask me if I want to be junior to this group. Answer: No

 

[relief tube]

I always laugh when this discussion comes up...you guys are crazy if you think that this will ever work.

Hey....anything is possible. We have a black president, can now make gas out of moss, and the cubs won the world series....wait.

 

[Browntothebone]

I think you're seniority should be determined by how much money you make. The more money you make the more senior you are.

 

[helavapilot]

While we are at it let's get rid of that Railway labor act and create a Airway labor act. Seriously we are due.

 

[milky]

The minute you drive the already failing companies out of business with some arbitrary seniority list that somehow compels the companies to pay more for labor, there will be an upstart that is non-union or non-participating. You think there are not pilots that will take the job to get out of CFI hell for any pay greater than that of a CFI? You guys are really talking about nationalizing the industry and forcing free market companies to accept something that they don not have to accept.

 

[pilotyip]

The minute you drive the already failing companies out of business with some arbitrary seniority list that somehow compels the companies to pay more for labor, there will be an upstart that is non-union or non-participating. You think there are not pilots that will take the job to get out of CFI hell for any pay greater than that of a CFI? You guys are really talking about nationalizing the industry and forcing free market companies to accept something that they don not have to accept.

OMG, another dose of reality. It has no place here.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The minute you drive the already failing companies out of business with some arbitrary seniority list that somehow compels the companies to pay more for labor, there will be an upstart that is non-union or non-participating. You think there are not pilots that will take the job to get out of CFI hell for any pay greater than that of a CFI? You guys are really talking about nationalizing the industry and forcing free market companies to accept something that they don not have to accept.

You are correct about non union upstarts circumventing the intent...

Then again though in theory, that is what CBA's are all about... forcing free markets companies to accept something.... sans SWA...

So, do you believe that unions should be illegal?

 

[pilotyip]

So, do you believe that unions should be illegal?

Of course unions should not be illegal, they have made great strides in making the workplace better. But there is a limit to a union’s power in a free market. Once union moves a mature company into a non-competitive position, a non-union company can gain a market foothold. They do it with lower costs, greater employee flexibility, then as they mature and get a union they become non-competitive and another non-union company starts up to take their place. The question for you, do you want to make the free market illegal?BTW back in the old days before de-reg. there was a pact called "Mutual Aid". This provided income to airlines that were shut down by employees on strike. If the employees at ABC Airlines went on strike and the load factor on XYZ Air went up, some of the revenue from the increased load factor at XYZ Air flowed back to ABC Airlines. This gave the shut down airline a source of revenue to allow them to let the employees stay out on strike a longer time. It gave a balance to both management and union to reach a reasonable contract. When mutual aid went away, it gave the unions a much stronger hand. The highly leveraged airline could not stay in business with a stop in cash flow for any extended period. This lead to shorter strikes, and Contracts Company would prefer not to enter. This stronger position may have been good for the employee in the short term, but is has been detrimental to the airline industry in the long run. An example of national seniority when De-reg. took place, it was put into the act that if an airline went belly up the pilots could go with the equipment to the new airline in their old seat. When the EAL planes went to USAir, TWA, etc, many EAL pilots tried to get jobs flying their old airplanes with their old seniority. Guess what happened? The union pilots at the gaining airlines said "No Way, we got ours, too bad for you".

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It is really amazing how biased you are.... read on...

Of course unions should not be illegal, they have made great strides in making the workplace better. But there is a limit to a union’s power in a free market. Once union moves a mature company into a non-competitive position, a non-union company can gain a market foothold. They do it with lower costs, greater employee flexibility, then as they mature and get a union they become non-competitive and another non-union company starts up to take their place.

So, therefore when a company matures it should shed its union? or the union should close up shop? If so, what is the threshold to do so?

The question for you, do you want to make the free market illegal?

Nope, I just want a level playing field... for all Americans.... not just a select few...

BTW back in the old days before de-reg. there was a pact called "Mutual Aid". This provided income to airlines that were shut down by employees on strike. If the employees at ABC Airlines went on strike and the load factor on XYZ Air went up, some of the revenue from the increased load factor at XYZ Air flowed back to ABC Airlines. This gave the shut down airline a source of revenue to allow them to let the employees stay out on strike a longer time. It gave a balance to both management and union to reach a reasonable contract. When mutual aid went away, it gave the unions a much stronger hand. The highly leveraged airline could not stay in business with a stop in cash flow for any extended period. This lead to shorter strikes, and Contracts Company would prefer not to enter. This stronger position may have been good for the employee in the short term, but is has been detrimental to the airline industry in the long run.

Silly you.... Thanks for the Mutual Aid lesson, but it wasn't needed... and what you forgot to talk about what how Frank Lorenzo realized how he could game Mutual Aid to break unions....

Yes, the reason why Mutual Aid is no longer around is because Lorenzo abused the intent and labor was able to show it provided airlines with an unfair advantage to endure strikes....

So if Lorenzo, who has been banned from the airline industry for destroying airlines and labor, played fairly, things would be different....

Were you aware of this?

An example of national seniority when De-reg. took place, it was put into the act that if an airline went belly up the pilots could go with the equipment to the new airline in their old seat. When the EAL planes went to USAir, TWA, etc, many EAL pilots tried to get jobs flying their old airplanes with their old seniority. Guess what happened? The union pilots at the gaining airlines said "No Way, we got ours, too bad for you".

Guess what... companies, unions, churches and govt and comprised of people....

There are good and bad people in both.... so instead of chiding unions for being unions... why open your mind....

 

[pilotyip]

Mature Airline Options

So, therefore when a company matures it should shed its union? or the union should close up shop? If so, what is the threshold to do so?

It is up to the union and management to decide how a mature airline will operate. The employees may shed its union. This has been done in some cases. The compnay may close shop if it can no longer compete. This has been done in some cases. The union may elect to take pay cuts in order to keep their jobs which will still be most likely better than any other job they could find. This has been done alot. The company may elect or merge with another airline. Lots of options for a mature airline.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It is up to the union and management to decide how a mature airline will operate. The employees may shed its union. This has been done in some cases. The compnay may close shop if it can no longer compete. This has been done in some cases. The union may elect to take pay cuts in order to keep their jobs which will still be most likely better than any other job they could find. This has been done alot. The company may elect or merge with another airline. Lots of options for a mature airline.

Does managment take paycuts? Does the old management team leave so a fresh new first year pay exec team can start?

Does management think with innovation?

Once again, all your answers and solutions are employees accepting hardship..... and of course managment as 'untouchables'

No thoughts on Lorenzo abusing the Mutual Aid program?

 

[pilotyip]

Management rules

Does managment take paycuts? Does the old management team leave so a fresh new first year pay exec team can start?

Does management think with innovation?

Once again, all your answers and solutions are employees accepting hardship..... and of course managment as 'untouchables'

No thoughts on Lorenzo abusing the Mutual Aid program?

Lorenzo was a scumbag, no doubt. He does represent typical management. Management may take pay cut, they may lose their jobs, Again management has marketable transferal skills unlike a pilot and if an airline fails or they are let go they have more options available to find employment. Managers most likely are knowledge workers as opposed to skilled labor. Source Dept of Labor definitions.
This is repeat but if fits here. This is a pilot board so saying anything in defense of management is like peeing into the wind, that is, it is going to come back to you. CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed. For lack of other reason it would make their resume look great, they would be doing something no other CEO had ever done. Top management includes many besides the CEO, the CEO sets direction as requested by the board. The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. Now I will agree that CEO leadership in many cases leaves much to be desired. An issue of ATW in 2002 had an article about "Airline Management a dying breed", the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. What is management supposed to do? Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. Without management you could not operate the airline, The FAA would shut it down without approved Part 119 key management. Would the pilots step up and become management for free in their spare time? Why is every time, pilot salaries come up, they are immediately compared to top management. I saw an article in ATW in 2001 that stated at DAL there were 17 members of top management made more than the top DAL Captain. The combined top 17 salaries equaled less than 1/6 of 1% of the combined pilot salaries. If management worked for free all pilots in the company would get a 1/10 of 1% raise. (for a $100K per year pilot that would be $3/wk increase in take home) Boy that raise would really make the pilot group happy. Top management possesses skills that allow them to move from job to job and command high salaries. And every one of these managers wants to see his/her airline prosper. They just can not do

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Can you break up your post... spacing....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Does managment take paycuts? Does the old management team leave so a fresh new first year pay exec team can start?

Does management think with innovation?

Once again, all your answers and solutions are employees accepting hardship..... and of course managment as 'untouchables'

Sounds like ALPA....ALPA just imposed a contract on it's employees and the "management" didn't take a paycut....It's OK if it's ALPA doing it though....

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Sounds like ALPA....ALPA just imposed a contract on it's employees and the "management" didn't take a paycut....It's OK if it's ALPA doing it though....

:bawling: :bawling: :bawling: :bawling:
Don't worry about ALPA junior, your worry is tissues!