My "pilot Deviation" At Dfw (don't Do This)

[TAWS]

What is it with the culture at DFW????

Was there an RA? Did you come close to one?

At RAH there have been a few DFW problems, to the point that we are paranoid about RNAVs. It seems that these guys at DFW are all about violations, yet when they screw up we don't hear anything about it.

How come ORD has 1 departure - OHARE1, yet ATL and DFW have a bunch?

 

[flyer172r]

What is it with the culture at DFW????

Was there an RA? Did you come close to one?

At RAH there have been a few DFW problems, to the point that we are paranoid about RNAVs. It seems that these guys at DFW are all about violations, yet when they screw up we don't hear anything about it.

How come ORD has 1 departure - OHARE1, yet ATL and DFW have a bunch?

I wouldn't be surprised to see ORD get a few RNAV departures, they just got the RNAV arrivals for no reason so the departures probably aren't too far behind.

 

[Starscream]

What is it with the culture at DFW????

At RAH there have been a few DFW problems, to the point that we are paranoid about RNAVs. It seems that these guys at DFW are all about violations, yet when they screw up we don't hear anything about it.

We've even heard that DFW TWR/TRACON has been pursuing violations for guys comind up on the wrong departure frequency!!!! What the Fu{k!!!!! What the heck FAR is that a violation of?!?!?! True, we should all be able to get the correct frequency off our plates/PDC's as appropriate, but still!!!! Certificate action?!?!? C'mon now!!

 

[Starscream]

How come ORD has 1 departure - OHARE1, yet ATL and DFW have a bunch?

On that same note, it may be a long while before we see them in NY, because there are so many variables involved with the vector departures as there are for each indivdual airport, based on the winds and what the other 2 airports are doing in terms or DEPs/ARVs. To come up with a comprehensive set of RNAV SIDs/STARs for NYC would be something of a logistical nightmare I would think. 30 different RNAV SIDs/STARs for each individual airport would be my prediction.

 

[crashpad]

We all make mistakes, but you are a true aviator to share it with your fellow pilots. Thank you.

 

[inthegoo]

thanks crashpad,

and no there was no RA, in fact the supervisor controller even told me on the phone that there were no other a/c for miles, it was quite quiet at the time launching off DFW, that was actually part of the problem, we got to the rwy so fast and there was no waiting and the controller said "are you ready?" and we of course took the bait, and well you know the rest...... I kicked myself all the way to ORD,

The controller also told me on the phone that they have had 70 other deviations like this one since Jan 1 07, and that "something needs to be done" she said.

-Goo

 

[TNPILOT]

So for you guys that fly out of DFW and ATL regularly I'm curious as to what they have been doing lately. Last time I was in DFW they were giving you the SID and tower would assign no heading so you just fly the SID. In ATL they were doing it differently. Tower assigned heading followed by "direct XYZ fix" issued by departure. Is this still the case or has ATL gone to a more DFW style where you just get cleared for takeoff and fly the SID? I have not been out of either of these airports in quite some time. Everytime I'm given one of these SID's at ATL or DFW it seems something different is going on. DFW seems to stick to what it published on the plates, except they don't use the monitor frequency for fix verification. In ATL they seem to deviate the most from the published because tower assigns a heading. The ATL scenario is easier however for someone like myself who doesn't go through there much it contrasts what we expect based on what we read on the plates.

Inthegoo, thanks for sharing. I hope it all works out well for you. I'm sure it will.

 

[JettBoii]

I had that happen once. They changed us from the north side to the south side. I selected 27R and went through the fixes but NEVER pushed execute; yes even with the big dashed line next to the solid line on the MFD. We missed it. Speed mode..nav mode...why is this thing turning the wrong way? I had a terrible sinking feeling. The tower immediately called to verify we were going to the first fix on the so and so departure. We verified both then realized what happened. Doh. Noting ever happened but there was not much talking for the rest of the day.

 

[Speedtape]

thanks crashpad,

and no there was no RA, in fact the supervisor controller even told me on the phone that there were no other a/c for miles, it was quite quiet at the time launching off DFW, that was actually part of the problem, we got to the rwy so fast and there was no waiting and the controller said "are you ready?" and we of course took the bait, and well you know the rest...... I kicked myself all the way to ORD,

The controller also told me on the phone that they have had 70 other deviations like this one since Jan 1 07, and that "something needs to be done" she said.

-Goo

Supposedly, there was another one recently that went no where for the crew. The DFW FAA interviewed the crew and took the info back to ATC for recommendations. Good Luck and thanks for sharing!

Sharing your experience may save someone else from the truama you have experienced. In this instance, YOUR POST gives "flightinfo.com" some real value to me and the others that will benefit from your experience! CRM can come in many forms! It takes character to realize and acknowledge a mistake! Hang in there as "every adversity is the seed to an equal or greater benefit to those who maintain a positive mental attitude." Confession is good especially when the intent is to help others! Now, keep your chin up, hold your head high, and move on down the airway! No metal was bent, no one was hurt, and no money was lost!

 

[V-1]

Thanks for sharing.

Perhaps because the load has been shifted from controllers to pilots with these new departures, and clearance delivery is not courteous enough to assign a runway with the clearance, the following procedure should be adopted by all pilots operating at airports where departure runways are not assigned by clearance delivery, and SID's of these types are in use...

Upon issuance of taxi instructions by ground, the crew will respond, instead of with the expected taxi clearance, but with the phrase "standby".

The crew will then set the parking brake, set and verify the correct routing is programmed into the FMS. Once this task is completed to the satisfaction of both crewmembers, the crew will read back the taxi instructions to the controller, and proceed with their taxi.

I suspect strict adherence to the above procedure would put a quick end to this scenario.

 

[ArcticFlier]

There but for the grace of God go I.

I can remember in Ground School during the FMS training we were told to put in the expected runway. But if you end up at another runway it's not really a big deal. When you hit the TOGA buttons, it's going to update where you are anyway. Guess RNAV departures put the lie to that.

Good luck,

 

[Mike man]

I did the ASAP , asap but you will still probably get a LOC.

I am certain that if you fill out an air carrier ASAP and it is accepted in a non sole source then the FAA can issue one of three things...letter of correction, warning notice or letter of no action. But the are not viewable by anyone other than you or the FAA. PIRA can't get access to them. The letters are all in a separate "folder".

 

[relief tube]

I've brought this up with our chief pilot numerous times about why they can't be like Atlanta was and remind pilots by asking them to state the first fix...
He said they did a study and found that it was unnecessary...even though people keep busting it.

Leave it to good old texas stuborness to not be liberal enough to accept that. Instead they have their 2 inches of Jepp plates, 100 SIDS and Stars when ORD has just 1 SID, and feel that it's their way or the highway.

Everything sure is bigger in texas, including stupidity.

 

[Simon Says]

Completely honest mistake. Mistakes like these is what the ASAP program is all about. Good luck to you sir.

 

[inthegoo]

HEY Arctic

There but for the grace of God go I.

I can remember in Ground School during the FMS training we were told to put in the expected runway. But if you end up at another runway it's not really a big deal. When you hit the TOGA buttons, it's going to update where you are anyway. Guess RNAV departures put the lie to that.

Good luck,

Yeah, if this is true arctic, then well the company cant really hang me out to dry, are you sure they said this? I think I might remember that also? send me a SWOL msg if you want to chat about it, I am #12418
thx!
-goo

 

[BoilerUP]

Everything sure is bigger in texas, including stupidity.

Now that is a quote for posterity's sake.

 

[ATRCA]

I am certain that if you fill out an air carrier ASAP and it is accepted in a non sole source then the FAA can issue one of three things...letter of correction, warning notice or letter of no action. But the are not viewable by anyone other than you or the FAA. PIRA can't get access to them. The letters are all in a separate "folder".

True, the application asked about FAA administrative actions and even though they do not have access to the LOC I put it on the app anyway. They asked, I told and I screwed me. What can you do? Move on I guess.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

How much would it be to ask that controllers just give an accurate runway to expect with the freakin clearance? That would eliminate half of these things. I mean, as someone else pointed out, we are doing our part to reduce their workload by flying these departures. It seems to me that the least they could do is give us upfront accurate runway information before we push from the gate that will allow us to set the thing up properly.

 

[SBD]

Crap, it's funny you guys/gals brought this up. Today we departed MIA on the Hiley1(I'm probably wrong on the spelling/departure but whatever) and tower gave us an initial heading off of 8R of 090 and to contact departure. I was the PF, and the Capt' checked in.
Us- "MIA departure XXX checking in 1500 for 5000"
MIA Dep- "XXX where are you guys going?"
Us- "We were told to fly heading 090."
MIA Dep- "weren't you guys told the Hiley1 Dep?"
Us- "Yes, but we were given a heading of 090."

It's only 3 degrees of the Departure, but are we in the wrong?
The controller began a rant of how we need to communicate better and understand what the actual clearance is. Apparently airspace is very tight there and the slightest deviation is a big deal. And I can understand that but we were told to fly heading 090. I think that after you cross 520' you are suppose to be on the RNAV departure. They didn't tell us to call a number or anything, but the Capt' was nervous/paranoid.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Crap, it's funny you guys/gals brought this up. Today we departed MIA on the Hiley1(I'm probably wrong on the spelling/departure but whatever) and tower gave us an initial heading off of 8R of 090 and to contact departure. I was the PF, and the Capt' checked in.
Us- "MIA departure XXX checking in 1500 for 5000"
MIA Dep- "XXX where are you guys going?"
Us- "We were told to fly heading 090."
MIA Dep- "weren't you guys told the Hiley1 Dep?"
Us- "Yes, but we were given a heading of 090."

It's only 3 degrees of the Departure, but are we in the wrong?
The controller began a rant of how we need to communicate better and understand what the actual clearance is. Apparently airspace is very tight there and the slightest deviation is a big deal. And I can understand that but we were told to fly heading 090. I think that after you cross 520' you are suppose to be on the RNAV departure. They didn't tell us to call a number or anything, but the Capt' was nervous/paranoid.

If they give you a heading with the takeoff clearance it voids any RNAV departure procedure at least until they clear you back to a fix that is on it. You were not in the wrong if it indeed happened as you described it.