My "pilot Deviation" At Dfw (don't Do This)

[SkyBoy1981]

Crap, it's funny you guys/gals brought this up. Today we departed MIA on the Hiley1(I'm probably wrong on the spelling/departure but whatever) and tower gave us an initial heading off of 8R of 090 and to contact departure. I was the PF, and the Capt' checked in.
Us- "MIA departure XXX checking in 1500 for 5000"
MIA Dep- "XXX where are you guys going?"
Us- "We were told to fly heading 090."
MIA Dep- "weren't you guys told the Hiley1 Dep?"
Us- "Yes, but we were given a heading of 090."

It's only 3 degrees of the Departure, but are we in the wrong?
The controller began a rant of how we need to communicate better and understand what the actual clearance is. Apparently airspace is very tight there and the slightest deviation is a big deal. And I can understand that but we were told to fly heading 090. I think that after you cross 520' you are suppose to be on the RNAV departure. They didn't tell us to call a number or anything, but the Capt' was nervous/paranoid.

Just out of curiousity I looked this up, and there isn't even an RNAV departure for MIA. There is a HILEY RNAV arrival. Unless things have changed since I last went there (which has been several years), everyone is given the MIA 9. The MIA 9 specifically says at the top that all aircraft are to climb on heading as assigned by ATC.

 

[viper548]

At my airline we recently changed our SOP to verify the correct runway and first waypoint when the FO checks to make sure the FMS is in Auto-tune. I hear the change was due to a number of mistakes like this one. I agree that DFW should verify the first waypoint like they do at other airports and maybe cut back the number of departures. Do they really need one for every day of the month?

 

[TAWS]

Thanks for sharing.

Perhaps because the load has been shifted from controllers to pilots with these new departures, and clearance delivery is not courteous enough to assign a runway with the clearance, the following procedure should be adopted by all pilots operating at airports where departure runways are not assigned by clearance delivery, and SID's of these types are in use...

Upon issuance of taxi instructions by ground, the crew will respond, instead of with the expected taxi clearance, but with the phrase "standby".

The crew will then set the parking brake, set and verify the correct routing is programmed into the FMS. Once this task is completed to the satisfaction of both crewmembers, the crew will read back the taxi instructions to the controller, and proceed with their taxi.

I suspect strict adherence to the above procedure would put a quick end to this scenario.

Great Advice!!

Once the FAA/airlines realize that it's taking waaaaaaaaaaayyyyy too long for people to get off the ground, they'll change things to a casual "bitch out on the freq" and turn on course! What's the point of making a big stink? Nobody wins.

In future, I'll be asking the cappy to pull over/stop, while we BOTH verify runway/fixes.

 

[SBD]

Just out of curiousity I looked this up, and there isn't even an RNAV departure for MIA. There is a HILEY RNAV arrival. Unless things have changed since I last went there (which has been several years), everyone is given the MIA 9. The MIA 9 specifically says at the top that all aircraft are to climb on heading as assigned by ATC.

Naw man, they have several Departures out of MIA now.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Any chance of the company (training department) stepping in on your behalf and asking the FAA to allow you guys to turn it into some Recurrent Ground School learning moment?

I've heard of this happening at ASA, and as a result the FAA has been easy on the offending crew.

 

[Regional4life]

Great learning experience. Thanks for standing up and sharing. Just an SOP note, after the unfortunate comair accident, our company established a takeoff brief that we are required to do shortly before taking the runway. At first, it seemed like a lot of overkill, but it only takes literally 6 or 7 seconds to do. It includes a verification of the runway in use and the runway in the FMC, the departure SID, flap setting, V2 speed, and automation (LNAV/VNAV, or HDG, etc). It has saved me once after a runway change of making sure the correct departure was in there (that same departure we had wx issues, mx prob, and delays so there was a lot on the plate). something to consider suggesting to add to SOP's.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Naw man, they have several Departures out of MIA now.

I just looked on airnav....don't have my Jepp plates. Perhaps they just aren't updated on airnav yet.

 

[atrdriver]

There but for the grace of God go I.

I can remember in Ground School during the FMS training we were told to put in the expected runway. But if you end up at another runway it's not really a big deal. When you hit the TOGA buttons, it's going to update where you are anyway. Guess RNAV departures put the lie to that.

Good luck,

This isn't a matter of the FMS not knowing where you are, it is because the first fix is different for each runway. If you load the wrong runway you will go to the wrong fix. Yes, pressing TOGA updates the FMS, but knowing where you are doesn't stop you from flying to the wrong fix.

 

[Freight Dog]

Any chance of the company (training department) stepping in on your behalf and asking the FAA to allow you guys to turn it into some Recurrent Ground School learning moment?

I've heard of this happening at ASA, and as a result the FAA has been easy on the offending crew.

This happened to me 6 years ago at my old regional.

ATC kept us high and fast on approach. Then we were cleared for an ILS, even though we were already full-scale high on the GS. Our mistake was that we accepted that clearance and weren't stabilized because we figured the weather was good enough to break out at about 2000ft above mins. We broke out but were way too high to make a straight-in landing. We wound up asking for and doing an overhead and landed uneventfully. Still, ATC turned us in, and the FAA got involved.

No letter in the file, but because captain was still under baby mins, and I just broke my 100 hours in type at the time, we had to do some stabilized approach training and a training flight. No letters in our file, nothing from the company, just some extra training.

It does happen.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

This happened to me 6 years ago at my old regional.

ATC kept us high and fast on approach. Then we were cleared for an ILS, even though we were already full-scale high on the GS. Our mistake was that we accepted that clearance and weren't stabilized because we figured the weather was good enough to break out at about 2000ft above mins. We broke out but were way too high to make a straight-in landing. We wound up asking for and doing an overhead and landed uneventfully. Still, ATC turned us in, and the FAA got involved.

No letter in the file, but because captain was still under baby mins, and I just broke my 100 hours in type at the time, we had to do some stabilized approach training and a training flight. No letters in our file, nothing from the company, just some extra training.

It does happen.

You did the right thing by abandoning the approach and still got called out on it? Thats pretty bad.

 

[Freight Dog]

The FAA's beef was that we initially accepted the clearance, and by doing so, not being able to get on a "stabilized approach."

It was definitely a learning experience.

 

[30West]

At FRA there are 38 pages of SIDS and STARS and they are usually tossed at you on your first contact with Frankfurt when you are then cleard to the first fix.

But if you can type 70wpm you are in good shape.

 

[idoitupsidedown]

thanks crashpad,


The controller also told me on the phone that they have had 70 other deviations like this one since Jan 1 07, and that "something needs to be done" she said.

-Goo

I fly light twins in the midwest in the middle of the night, so the most complex departure procedure i get is when they give me a different departure freq than clearance did, so i can't relate much to your original post, but i echo everyone's thoughts that its nice to know there are pilots who are willing to share their mistakes to help others... here's my two cents about what the controller told you on the phone though. I just this morning heard a controller tell a king air something similar and it really bothers me. The king air was departing off a tower controlled field while the tower was closed. I didn't catch what the exact problem was, but the gist was that somewhere in the process of him picking up his clearance, departing, and making the transition to talk to departure, something was unsafe/incorrect/just not right about the way the system was set up. he told this to the controller and the responce was "yeah, we get that all the time, it needs changed. you could file a NASA or call, i dunno, someone." my beef with that is that the king air pilot was most likely not local so it could have been the first and only time he'll deal with that particular system error. The controller sees it every time it happens and he's trying to tell the pilot to get ahold of someone to complain about it. why don't the controllers take a few minutes and voice a concern about these things? I'm sure the FAA would take a quicker/more indepth look at problems when ATC starts saying its wrong.

 

[Damich]

I like what Skyboy1981 suggested. Why not give us a freaking runway assignment when we call for clearance? Then the FO can be looking outside during the taxi out. We don't need to load our 200 hr FO's up any more than we have to. Or better yet, why doesn't the FAA make it mandatory to complete the taxi checklist prior to taxi like Southwest? Would Comair have crashed in LEX had the FO been looking outside? Who knows. This $hit has got to stop. Just my $0.02. Thanks for the post Inthegoo.

 

[JETJET]

I agree with Skyboy as well. We should be like the Canadians. You always get the runway assignment in Canada when you talk to clearance delivery.

 

[exhaustgas]

PRIA Info

Just FYI for your own knowledge..

Administrative Action on your certificate does not just go into another "folder" somewhere and get buried. The Enforcement Investigation Record is recorded permenantly in your airman records and the actual Administrative Sanction is recorded for two years. I am not familiar with PRIA details, however, I do know that even if PRIA only reports Certificate Action on the FAA airman report from OKC, the record of the Enforecement Investigation and outcome is recorded in your file indefinately. This info is public info and Air Carriers are entitled to it upon request. Large Carriers have very open lines of communications with their Certificate Management Offices and Principals.

Be Very Careful when Asked that question, and for the guy above who thinks he did it to himself by admitting to guilt, don't be so sure to know that you did it to yourself...You might have done the right thing by telling the truth despite the interview outcome.