My "pilot Deviation" At Dfw (don't Do This)

[inthegoo]

Clearance gave us Grabe 2 RNAV pilot NAV SID in DFW,

FO and I briefed expected 18L and he entered it in FMS,

Assigned 17R by ground,

Did not change it in FMS,

"speed mode, nav mode"

BUSTED, and it's goin to the FAA

Grabe 2 17R and 18L are 2 totally different routes

Yes, we already filed ASAP's,

So friends, learn from my mistake.

-GOO


P.S. you superpilots who would never do this can keep your comments to yourselves

 

[HAZ-MAT]

Thank you for bringing it to our attention. We had an email sent to all the pilots at NJA about 6 months ago bringing this same scenario up. Modern technology is great, if you know what is entered in the FMS (correctly!)

 

[svcta]

You've done the right thing so far. Just be honest about it and make it clear that you understand how bad this is and that you'll learn from it when the phone starts ringing. That's all you can do.

Not that it's not common knowledge, but this is why they began asking what your first fix was at ATL before they launched you.

 

[CFIse]

So at DFW are they not doing the "verify first fix" stuff like they do at ATL and I thought I saw a memo saying they would at CLT when they got RNAVs?

 

[135pilot]

Inthegoo, it is rather unfortunate that this incident happened and will be filed with the FAA but on the other hand I believe this will be a learning experience to catch/correct such mistakes in the future, thanks for sharing.

 

[nethan]

Does ATL even launch direct the fix anymore? It seems like every time I am out of there it is 255 at the marker and then departure gives you direct the fix.

Inthegoo, sorry to hear that. Hopefully the ASAP will cover you.

 

[Edge540]

You jacka$$!!! How could you be so stupid!!!!

In all seriousness, thank you for posting about this. What you did is a very easy mistake to make that could be made by any of us tomorrow. I would imagine that the FAA will take the verbal slap on the wrist approach and put out another memo.

It is so easy for things like this to happen at large, complicated, busy as hell airports. Just motivation for us all to never let our guard down....

 

[SiuDude]

Does ATL even launch direct the fix anymore?

Not right now. We got a memo that they should be going back to that in October.

 

[ATRCA]

Clearance gave us Grabe 2 RNAV pilot NAV SID in DFW,

FO and I briefed expected 18L and he entered it in FMS,

Assigned 17R by ground,

Did not change it in FMS,

"speed mode, nav mode"

BUSTED, and it's goin to the FAA

Grabe 2 17R and 18L are 2 totally different routes

Yes, we already filed ASAP's,

So friends, learn from my mistake.

-GOO


P.S. you superpilots who would never do this can keep your comments to yourselves

I did something similar at another airport. Got the LOC from the FAA. Thought everything was ok. Found out later that the LOC might be the main reason I have not gotten a call from a carier I have been trying to get on with. Worst part is that I told them about the LOC even though it is more than two yrs old now and they are holding it against me. Sucks

I did the ASAP , asap but you will still probably get a LOC.

 

[Starscream]

At AE they are VERY big on making sure your RNAV stuff is correctly loaded since DFW is now full swing into RNAV departures. Some thoughts/suggestions came to my mind during my recent recurrent..........

1. ATC should always include RNAV SID and DEP RWY on PDC's/Voice IFR clearance deliveries.

2. Crews do not load an anticipated RNAV SID/RWY into the box, instead, we all wait until the actual SID/RWY is assigned by ATC. I would think that if this became the norm in Opspecs everywhere that the frequency of similar deviations would drop.

3. And of course, ATC shall assign the RNAV SID/RWY no later than initial contact for taxi out. If, at a later time, ATC changes either of the above, we, the flight crew, bring the aircraft to a stop right then and there and make sure our FMSs properly reflect the appropriate change (shouldn't take more than a minute). Or, of course, just say "unable."

BTW, we were told in recurrent that DFW Tower stopped doing the verfication of first fix because it took the controllers from their primary responsibility, which was to constantly make sure that the correct aircraft were on the correct (7) runways. Fair enough. I just think that a system at DFW to assign RWYs based on DEP gates might help solve the problem. This is what they do at ATL and it seems to work just fine there.

 

[Leroy Smith]

ATL stopped doing RNAVs properly quite a long time ago because there were so many deviations (even with the first fix verification)!


There are those who have and those who will.....


?Got Union?

 

[Instinct]

Thank you for posting this. We can spend our whole career making all the mistakes in the world, or we can learn from others...

 

[ATRCA]

In my opinion RNAV departures are a WIN for ATC and a BUST for pilots. Departure separation was an ATC function. They directed the flow of traffic out and in and took responsibility for separtaion. Now they wash their hands of it, give it to us and the let the violations fly!! Now on top of everyithing else, we pilots have to navigate our way out of some of the busiest airports in the country. I have done plenty of RNAV departures without incident. It only takes one and .......your busted.....

How many times have you gotten busted while being vectored during departure. NONE! Dump this important task on our shoulders and you can get into trouble.

 

[Starscream]

This sh!t can be done safely, we just need proper guidance/training/procedures! I've been doing RNAV DEPs for about a year or so, and I received my first formal training on it only last week! It's not that hard or demanding, it just requires layers of protection, like almost every other part of our operation. It's up to the fleet managers/training depts/technical directors/etc. to see to it that these layers of protection become SOP. In the meantime.............be careful out there boys and girls........

 

[flyer172r]

From the few airports that seem to be using RNAV departures, it seems that DFW is the only one that doesn't assign a heading when clearing you for takeoff, they just assume you're going to proceed direct to the first fix on your departure.

I'm sure there are other airports out there that assume the same thing, but DFW's the only one I've been to. ATL and IAH both assign a heading.

 

[ATRCA]

This sh!t can be done safely, we just need proper guidance/training/procedures! I've been doing RNAV DEPs for about a year or so, and I received my first formal training on it only last week! It's not that hard or demanding, it just requires layers of protection, like almost every other part of our operation. It's up to the fleet managers/training depts/technical directors/etc. to see to it that these layers of protection become SOP. In the meantime.............be careful out there boys and girls........

I agree, the problem is when you add poor wx, delays, runway changes, the list goes on. It is very easy to blow this one.

 

[Starscream]

Very true, but the same goes for approaches. We could just as easily brief the wrong approach, and join the localizer for the wrong runway, etc., but since the guidance for approach briefings, instrument/radios setting/cross checking, etc. has become more well defined over time, incidents involving flying an approach to the wrong runway have decreased. Look at international flying. Different tranition altitudes/levels in most countries in the world, yet procedures have been developed that minimize (of course not eliminate) the number of alitude deviations by all internation carriers operating outside their home countries. I fly out of NYC mostly (convential nav/vector departures), and believe me, I don't have any sort of fatuation with RNAV SIDs. I just feel that this initiative is still in its infancy, and that safe and practical operating procedures can be developed for this, as well.

 

[Bullitt]

inthegoo,

Just wanted to say good luck with everything and I appreciate you posting your experience on this forum. Everyone can most certainly learn from something like this.

 

[Brasilia Flyer]

LAX does the RNAV departure thing too. They're still asking to verify the first fix.

 

[brokeflyer]

Dont feel bad...your not a real pilot until you had the FAA up your ass 3 or 4 times in your career......

 

[TAWS]

What is it with the culture at DFW????

Was there an RA? Did you come close to one?

At RAH there have been a few DFW problems, to the point that we are paranoid about RNAVs. It seems that these guys at DFW are all about violations, yet when they screw up we don't hear anything about it.

How come ORD has 1 departure - OHARE1, yet ATL and DFW have a bunch?

 

[flyer172r]

What is it with the culture at DFW????

Was there an RA? Did you come close to one?

At RAH there have been a few DFW problems, to the point that we are paranoid about RNAVs. It seems that these guys at DFW are all about violations, yet when they screw up we don't hear anything about it.

How come ORD has 1 departure - OHARE1, yet ATL and DFW have a bunch?

I wouldn't be surprised to see ORD get a few RNAV departures, they just got the RNAV arrivals for no reason so the departures probably aren't too far behind.

 

[Starscream]

What is it with the culture at DFW????

At RAH there have been a few DFW problems, to the point that we are paranoid about RNAVs. It seems that these guys at DFW are all about violations, yet when they screw up we don't hear anything about it.

We've even heard that DFW TWR/TRACON has been pursuing violations for guys comind up on the wrong departure frequency!!!! What the Fu{k!!!!! What the heck FAR is that a violation of?!?!?! True, we should all be able to get the correct frequency off our plates/PDC's as appropriate, but still!!!! Certificate action?!?!? C'mon now!!

 

[Starscream]

How come ORD has 1 departure - OHARE1, yet ATL and DFW have a bunch?

On that same note, it may be a long while before we see them in NY, because there are so many variables involved with the vector departures as there are for each indivdual airport, based on the winds and what the other 2 airports are doing in terms or DEPs/ARVs. To come up with a comprehensive set of RNAV SIDs/STARs for NYC would be something of a logistical nightmare I would think. 30 different RNAV SIDs/STARs for each individual airport would be my prediction.

 

[crashpad]

We all make mistakes, but you are a true aviator to share it with your fellow pilots. Thank you.

 

[inthegoo]

thanks crashpad,

and no there was no RA, in fact the supervisor controller even told me on the phone that there were no other a/c for miles, it was quite quiet at the time launching off DFW, that was actually part of the problem, we got to the rwy so fast and there was no waiting and the controller said "are you ready?" and we of course took the bait, and well you know the rest...... I kicked myself all the way to ORD,

The controller also told me on the phone that they have had 70 other deviations like this one since Jan 1 07, and that "something needs to be done" she said.

-Goo

 

[TNPILOT]

So for you guys that fly out of DFW and ATL regularly I'm curious as to what they have been doing lately. Last time I was in DFW they were giving you the SID and tower would assign no heading so you just fly the SID. In ATL they were doing it differently. Tower assigned heading followed by "direct XYZ fix" issued by departure. Is this still the case or has ATL gone to a more DFW style where you just get cleared for takeoff and fly the SID? I have not been out of either of these airports in quite some time. Everytime I'm given one of these SID's at ATL or DFW it seems something different is going on. DFW seems to stick to what it published on the plates, except they don't use the monitor frequency for fix verification. In ATL they seem to deviate the most from the published because tower assigns a heading. The ATL scenario is easier however for someone like myself who doesn't go through there much it contrasts what we expect based on what we read on the plates.

Inthegoo, thanks for sharing. I hope it all works out well for you. I'm sure it will.

 

[JettBoii]

I had that happen once. They changed us from the north side to the south side. I selected 27R and went through the fixes but NEVER pushed execute; yes even with the big dashed line next to the solid line on the MFD. We missed it. Speed mode..nav mode...why is this thing turning the wrong way? I had a terrible sinking feeling. The tower immediately called to verify we were going to the first fix on the so and so departure. We verified both then realized what happened. Doh. Noting ever happened but there was not much talking for the rest of the day.

 

[Speedtape]

thanks crashpad,

and no there was no RA, in fact the supervisor controller even told me on the phone that there were no other a/c for miles, it was quite quiet at the time launching off DFW, that was actually part of the problem, we got to the rwy so fast and there was no waiting and the controller said "are you ready?" and we of course took the bait, and well you know the rest...... I kicked myself all the way to ORD,

The controller also told me on the phone that they have had 70 other deviations like this one since Jan 1 07, and that "something needs to be done" she said.

-Goo

Supposedly, there was another one recently that went no where for the crew. The DFW FAA interviewed the crew and took the info back to ATC for recommendations. Good Luck and thanks for sharing!

Sharing your experience may save someone else from the truama you have experienced. In this instance, YOUR POST gives "flightinfo.com" some real value to me and the others that will benefit from your experience! CRM can come in many forms! It takes character to realize and acknowledge a mistake! Hang in there as "every adversity is the seed to an equal or greater benefit to those who maintain a positive mental attitude." Confession is good especially when the intent is to help others! Now, keep your chin up, hold your head high, and move on down the airway! No metal was bent, no one was hurt, and no money was lost!

 

[V-1]

Thanks for sharing.

Perhaps because the load has been shifted from controllers to pilots with these new departures, and clearance delivery is not courteous enough to assign a runway with the clearance, the following procedure should be adopted by all pilots operating at airports where departure runways are not assigned by clearance delivery, and SID's of these types are in use...

Upon issuance of taxi instructions by ground, the crew will respond, instead of with the expected taxi clearance, but with the phrase "standby".

The crew will then set the parking brake, set and verify the correct routing is programmed into the FMS. Once this task is completed to the satisfaction of both crewmembers, the crew will read back the taxi instructions to the controller, and proceed with their taxi.

I suspect strict adherence to the above procedure would put a quick end to this scenario.