More than 50% of UPS pilots are idiots!!!

[Corona]

So true!
While the UPS contract may not be all that, I dare you to look at:
CAL
DAL
NWA
UAL
Alaska
US Air/AWA

While no contarct may be perfect, some are more perfect than others.

However, every airline you mention here is a passenger carrier. They are in no way related to the cargo-carrier industry. It was yet another victory for Management, this time at UPS, to link the compensation comparison between the two.

Pilots, or any other employee, need to be paid for their productivity; ie, how much money they make for their company.

UPS pilots make their company many, many times what pax airline pilots bring in, and should be compensated accordingly. Too bad.

C

 

[av8trix]

What??

FedEx, hasn't approved their contract. Until they do so (which I admit they probably will) we have to deal with the fact that you're stuck on small Narrow body (727) for the first 1/3-1/2 half of your carrer (FE then FO then CA - unless you hold out for the MD10/11).

Dude, what are you talking about??? No one is stuck on narrow body at FedEx. My husband was off that A/C in less than a year!

 

[capt. megadeth]

However, every airline you mention here is a passenger carrier. They are in no way related to the cargo-carrier industry. It was yet another victory for Management, this time at UPS, to link the compensation comparison between the two.

Pilots, or any other employee, need to be paid for their productivity; ie, how much money they make for their company.

UPS pilots make their company many, many times what pax airline pilots bring in, and should be compensated accordingly. Too bad.

C

The problem is is that when the legacy carriers were doing great, the company didn't want to compare but the pilots did. When the legacy carriers were not doing well, the company wanted to compare but the pilots didn't. The company wants to have it both ways but so do the pilots and that just ain't gonna happen.

 

[Browntothebone]

What you say is mostly correct, but your reasoning is a little off. UPS wants it both ways, and since a majority of the pilots voted yes, they got what they wanted. The key is comparison to companies that mirror your own financial state. UPS was making money when the passenger airlines were doing well, and they are making even more now. Remember when you vote on the next contract in 2013 0r 2014 (yes, after a 3 year delay) that you were tricked in 2006.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Remember when you vote on the next contract in 2013 0r 2014 (yes, after a 3 year delay) that you were tricked in 2006.

I'm sure we'll be fixing crap from this one.

 

[psysicx]

Does UPS have a 24hr reserve call out?

 

[Green Baron 737]

Psysicx: Yes they do. UPS have Reserve call in for night and day reserve (CA and CP respectively) They go pretty junior as they are usually used to disperse open time and usually get called before the short call guys get called. There are some guys that work the system very well and have it down to a fine science and dodge the flying while on 24 hour call in. Don't ask me how they do it.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Pilots, or any other employee, need to be paid for their productivity; ie, how much money they make for their company.

So, when your gardner comes to you and says, "Hey, I hear you got a big raise. Congratulations! But since I'M the guy who mows your lawn, thus allowing you to be gone 16 days a month, I figure I ought to get one of those "signing bonuses" too. In fact, since I should have raised my rates 3 years ago but didn't, I want an immediate "signing bonus" of say, 25% of what I billed you last year, in addition to an increase of 10% on future billing. I don't CARE what other gardners in the neighborhood make. This is what I want. You're a rich airline pilot, you can afford it."

If you really believe that how much money you make should be a factor in how much you pay for services, you'd agree to his request for an increase in his rates and write him a check to compensate him for all the years he didn't get a raise.

If it were me, I'd be looking for a new gardner...

 

[ptarmigan]

So, when your gardner comes to you and says, "Hey, I hear you got a big raise. Congratulations! But since I'M the guy who mows your lawn, thus allowing you to be gone 16 days a month, I figure I ought to get one of those "signing bonuses" too. In fact, since I should have raised my rates 3 years ago but didn't, I want an immediate "signing bonus" of say, 25% of what I billed you last year, in addition to an increase of 10% on future billing. I don't CARE what other gardners in the neighborhood make. This is what I want. You're a rich airline pilot, you can afford it."

If you really believe that how much money you make should be a factor in how much you pay for services, you'd agree to his request for an increase in his rates and write him a check to compensate him for all the years he didn't get a raise.

If it were me, I'd be looking for a new gardner...

Just fire him for sleeping with your wife!

 

[psysicx]

24 hr call out wouldn't be bad since you could commute. Are you seat locked or can you bid to another jet right away?

 

[MalteseX]

Faulty Analogy

So, when your gardner comes to you and says, "Hey, I hear you got a big raise. Congratulations! But since I'M the guy who mows your lawn, thus allowing you to be gone 16 days a month, I figure I ought to get one of those "signing bonuses" too. In fact, since I should have raised my rates 3 years ago but didn't, I want an immediate "signing bonus" of say, 25% of what I billed you last year, in addition to an increase of 10% on future billing. I don't CARE what other gardners in the neighborhood make. This is what I want. You're a rich airline pilot, you can afford it."

If you really believe that how much money you make should be a factor in how much you pay for services, you'd agree to his request for an increase in his rates and write him a check to compensate him for all the years he didn't get a raise.

If it were me, I'd be looking for a new gardner...

Faulty analogy.... apples and oranges.

UPS pilots labor DIRECTLY contributes to the financial profits of UPS
The gardener does not in any way contribute to the income of the UPS pilot.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Faulty analogy.... apples and oranges.

UPS pilots labor DIRECTLY contributes to the financial profits of UPS

So does every package sorter. I think it was a good analogy.

Let me ask you this....if the pilots should make bank because the company is making billions in profits right now, if the company were to stop making any profits tomorrow, does that mean we should take an immediate paycut? As much as I would love to make 500K a year, I just find the "our pay should be based on the profits of the company" argument hard to swallow.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

UPS pilots labor DIRECTLY contributes to the financial profits of UPS
The gardener does not in any way contribute to the income of the UPS pilot.

No, it does not!

As a pilot, your duties and responsibilities remain essentially the same, whether you're flying a full 727 from SDQ to Ft Wayne or wherever, or a 767 with one box from Anchorage to Taipei. As a previous post illustrates, when a company loses money (which yours did, in opening many foreign markets) it doesn't mean that labor is expected to work for "free." The skills necessary to perform your job and the difficulties you incur while performing it lie irrespective of whether the company is making money or not. Like the neighborhood gardner I used in my analogy, the value of your service is determined (at least on the high end) by how motivated your company is to avoid an interruption of service. On the low end, it's determined by the lowest amount that other pilots are willing to work for. If you look at what other pilots flying similar equipment and schedules are making, you'll see that you have an industry-leading contract.

If you want to share in the profits of your company, I suggest you use your raise to purchase as much stock in them as your budget or the articles of their incorporation will allow.

Lee Iaccocca used to close his automobile commercials with a challenge to prospective purchasers..."If you can find a better car, BUY it!"

I think a similar challenge might be put forth to anybody who feels that the UPS pilot group are "idiots" for ratifying this contract.

 

[Green Baron 737]

Reserve

24 hr call out wouldn't be bad since you could commute. Are you seat locked or can you bid to another jet right away?

May not be that easy to commute to. Last minute jumpseating is just rolling the dice to get yourself into trouble. Getting in trouble while a probie at UPS is not a good idea.

You can bid something else straight away but the company have no obligation to consider your bid. About 4 times a year they have system bids and sometimes they will include probies but mostly don't.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Jeeze, did I say "gardner" in my previous 2 posts, when I obviously meant to say "gardener?"

Maybe I should have stuck to "lawn-mower-and-mulch-tosser-guy" like I originally planned to...

 

[psysicx]

24hrs is a lot of time. There are freak things that happen but there shouldn't be any problems making it.

 

[Corona]

So, when your gardner comes to you and says, "Hey, I hear you got a big raise. Congratulations! But since I'M the guy who mows your lawn, thus allowing you to be gone 16 days a month, I figure I ought to get one of those "signing bonuses" too. In fact, since I should have raised my rates 3 years ago but didn't, I want an immediate "signing bonus" of say, 25% of what I billed you last year, in addition to an increase of 10% on future billing. I don't CARE what other gardners in the neighborhood make. This is what I want. You're a rich airline pilot, you can afford it."

If you really believe that how much money you make should be a factor in how much you pay for services, you'd agree to his request for an increase in his rates and write him a check to compensate him for all the years he didn't get a raise.

If it were me, I'd be looking for a new gardner...

Well, congrats: You've discovered the difference between the service industry and being a professional pilot! Apple, meet orange...

My farmer uncle made the same comparison between pilots and restaurant waiters last year, for gawd's sake!

If the gardener can negotiate higher compensation, then he is a fool if he doesn't. It's not a personal attack to demand more money; it's just business. It's too bad that most pilots in this stupid industry don't understand that.

C

PS: Not that I can afford a gardener (I'm not a rich airline pilot), but I'd definitely choose the one who doesn't scalp the grass and butcher the shrubs, for starters, BEFORE considering price...

 

[Corona]

As much as I would love to make 500K a year, I just find the "our pay should be based on the profits of the company" argument hard to swallow.

Fair enough.

Do you actually deserve the pay you're receiving now?

How do you justify your pay?

Couldn't you survive on much less?

My main point in my original post is that pilots need to look out for their own survival. Basing their compensation on company profits or whatever is but one weapon in the potential arsenal. When pilots adopt management justifications as their own, they lose.

C

 

[Captain Oveur]

God knows management is incompetent, grasping, and short-sighted at
a lot of places. And I have no complaints about pilots and maintainers
looking out for their own best interests. I find it fascinating, though, to
hear UPS and FedEx guys liken their situation to medieval galley slaves.:nuts:
Work towards a contract with features that you want, but until then,
at least admit you have a pretty good gig.

 

[MalteseX]

So does every package sorter. I think it was a good analogy.

Let me ask you this....if the pilots should make bank because the company is making billions in profits right now, if the company were to stop making any profits tomorrow, does that mean we should take an immediate paycut? As much as I would love to make 500K a year, I just find the "our pay should be based on the profits of the company" argument hard to swallow.

deleted

 

[MalteseX]

No, it does not!

As a pilot, your duties and responsibilities remain essentially the same, whether you're flying a full 727 from SDQ to Ft Wayne or wherever, or a 767 with one box from Anchorage to Taipei. As a previous post illustrates, when a company loses money (which yours did, in opening many foreign markets) it doesn't mean that labor is expected to work for "free." The skills necessary to perform your job and the difficulties you incur while performing it lie irrespective of whether the company is making money or not. Like the neighborhood gardner I used in my analogy, the value of your service is determined (at least on the high end) by how motivated your company is to avoid an interruption of service. On the low end, it's determined by the lowest amount that other pilots are willing to work for. If you look at what other pilots flying similar equipment and schedules are making, you'll see that you have an industry-leading contract.

If you want to share in the profits of your company, I suggest you use your raise to purchase as much stock in them as your budget or the articles of their incorporation will allow.

Lee Iaccocca used to close his automobile commercials with a challenge to prospective purchasers..."If you can find a better car, BUY it!"

I think a similar challenge might be put forth to anybody who feels that the UPS pilot group are "idiots" for ratifying this contract.

Now that's a good explanation. I see your point now, what you were getting at. I really didn't follow the gardener analogy (still don't)... but I see where you are coming from with this post.

It's funny. We actually agree. I just got hung up on the gardener analogy, and totally missed your point. (also, I missed that you were responding to a previous post; makes more sense to me now--then again, I think that was on my day off after a few free Corona's).

 

[MalteseX]

So does every package sorter. I think it was a good analogy.

Let me ask you this....if the pilots should make bank because the company is making billions in profits right now, if the company were to stop making any profits tomorrow, does that mean we should take an immediate paycut? As much as I would love to make 500K a year, I just find the "our pay should be based on the profits of the company" argument hard to swallow.

Trying to answer the question you ask....
I'm not advocating tying pay to company profits, so the answer would be no to either a raise or a paycut. Labor is an expense. But remember, it's pretty much a one way street. If there are a lot of profits, good. If the company goes into the red, "near-immediate" furloughs usually happen.

I did not notice that the guy that posted the gardener analogy was in response to someone who was tying pay to profits; I read it in "isolation" and didn't follow the analogy--I see where he was coming from in a subsequent explanation.... and I too find the pay based on profits hard to swallow.

 

[capt. megadeth]

God knows management is incompetent, grasping, and short-sighted at
a lot of places. And I have no complaints about pilots and maintainers
looking out for their own best interests. I find it fascinating, though, to
hear UPS and FedEx guys liken their situation to medieval galley slaves.:nuts:
Work towards a contract with features that you want, but until then,
at least admit you have a pretty good gig.

It is a pretty good gig. The night flying is tough though but other than that it's better than any job I have had or my friends have, IMO.

I like the way you put that...."fascinating". I have another word for it.

 

[active_herk]

God knows management is incompetent, grasping, and short-sighted at
a lot of places. And I have no complaints about pilots and maintainers
looking out for their own best interests. I find it fascinating, though, to
hear UPS and FedEx guys liken their situation to medieval galley slaves.:nuts:
Work towards a contract with features that you want, but until then,
at least admit you have a pretty good gig.

Well.....what is a good gig and what is a bad gig? I would argue its all relative. Take Alex Rodriguez for example, he GETS TO PLAY BASEBALL for $25 million per year. I would also bet he isn't away from home any more per year than I am. That, to me is a pretty good gig.

What about a movie star who gets paid $20 million per movie? That's a pretty good gig as well.

What about Oprah? She supposedly makes about $200 million per year with her gig. Not too shabby.

A little closer to home.... our own Fred Smith, of FedEx, made over $70 million last year when you include stock options and bonuses. Although I'm sure he works pretty hard, I would have to say he has a pretty good gig as well.

So I guess what I am trying to say is my salary looks pretty paltry compared to some others with some "pretty good gigs". Do I fret over this? Of course not. So why is it that people have to fret over what I earn as an airline pilot and think that I make too much money (for my great gig!)?

 

[capt. megadeth]

Hey herk. Read below. Who cares what people think?

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

...why is it that people have to fret over what I earn as an airline pilot and think that I make too much money (for my great gig!)?

I suspect that what they're "fretting" over is that we pilots do a job that almost any reasonably intelligent, healthy, motivated person could be taught to do in a year or less. I'm basing that on how long it takes the military to train a pilot. I may be wrong, but I believe that Lufthansa takes about the same amount of time to take a high school graduate through their ab initio program and place him or her into the cockpit of an airliner. Of course, the selection process for entrance into their program is possibly the most demanding in the world...probably tougher than getting into a service academy here. But still...

We can all thank "Microsoft Flight Sim 2004" for doing more to dimish the aura of being a pilot than anything since Karen Black landed the 747 in "Airport '75"

Personally, I don't care what people think about what I make. Post it on the d@mn cockpit door for all I care. I just know I wouldn't trust my life to a doctor, lawyer, or anybody else who was content to make 50k per year.