More fallout from SWA crash - pax and rw length

[vv100]

Fyi

Landings under Braking Advisories Less than GOOD
Braking action reports less than GOOD are classified according to the most critical term (FAIR, POOR, NIL, or combinations). Operations are prohibited on all surfaces classified as ‘NIL.’
Evaluate landing performance using the OPC. The -700 OPC landing module computes a deceleration rate as a combination of reversers and brakes. (-300/-500) The OPC computes landing performance based on ‘brakes only’ deceleration. Actual braking performance using brakes and thrust reversers will decrease computed landing distance.

 

[Thedude]

For the Boeings that I have flown. Auto-brakes does this fo ya
Min = 3 kts p/sec
Med = 6 kts p/sec
Max = 3000 psi

It doesnt matter whether t/r are used or not, you still get the same deceraltion value. As far as the new 737 go, I assume it works the same as other Boeing products

 

[oldxfr8dog]

When there isn't a bomb on the plane, the government is required to find a retard and murder them, it's the law.

Are you sure you're washing all the lead off your hands after you shoot that FAL?

 

[Crossky]

You do not know this simple conversion? Do you really need to be posting questions then?

Isn't it a factor 1.159 (knots to mph)? If so it was still an 11 knot TW to a 6.5K ft contaminated runway with snow and BA fair and poor, at night. Two ATA's refused 31C, wanted 13 and diverted. Does this make the SWA crew brave or gamblers? Dice rollers at the very least.

My standard comfort level BA poor max TW is 5 kt unless you have gobs of RWY length.

Honestly I do like SWA (except for the pay to play part), but three of their 737's have overrun runways in the last six years. The FAA should address this trend I believe. Their PR crew at Love will really have their hands busy with Wright plus this after it gets out.

Go ahead, I've got my fire suit on now.

 

[GuppyWN]

OK Cross..... here I go.

MDW - yet to be determined. So 2 ATA guys diverted? What are THEIR procedures under these circumstances. Unless you know individual carriers ops it's impossible to determine what is "safe" in their eyes. IF the data says it's safe and legal to land then it's safe and legal. Let's wait until the NTSB completes their investigation and releases data before we start crusifying the crew. I'm sure running off the runway was not in the agenda.

AA killed 256 people in 2001 because the pilot flying input enough rudder movement to pull the tail off the airplane. The AA pilots in Cali killed how many people because they flew into a mountain after improperly programming to FMC? How many people died in Little Rock when an AA chief pilot tried to land in a thunderstorm and ran off the end of the runway?

But for the grace of God...... let's try to learn something from this and ALL be better for it.

This isn't about the Wright Ammendment or bad press. This is about an aircraft ACCIDENT in which a six year old boy passed away.

Show a little dignity!

Gup

 

[Jim Smyth]

Isn't it a factor 1.159 (knots to mph)? If so it was still an 11 knot TW to a 6.5K ft contaminated runway with snow and BA fair and poor, at night. Two ATA's refused 31C, wanted 13 and diverted. Does this make the SWA crew brave or gamblers? Dice rollers at the very least.

My standard comfort level BA poor max TW is 5 kt unless you have gobs of RWY length.

Honestly I do like SWA (except for the pay to play part), but three of their 737's have overrun runways in the last six years. The FAA should address this trend I believe. Their PR crew at Love will really have their hands busy with Wright plus this after it gets out.

Go ahead, I've got my fire suit on now.

OK, I'll bite.

Lets see, all this comes from your vast experience in flying transport aircraft all over the US into all different types of airports in all types of weather! Your comfort level and our comfort level may be different due to our experience in equipment, airports, training (HUDS), 5-6 Takeoffs and Landing every day at work etc. I will still put our safety record up against anyone at 3000+ flights a day in the US. This last Midway incident was indeed tragic but I can think of a lot of worse scenarios that could have been.

We use a computer to do performance for every landing we do, rain or shine! If what you say is true then our computer would have red flagged the landing data since 10 kts is our limit and the crew couldn't have done the approach. I am sure it was OK to land that evening since a company aircraft landed right in front of him. Time will tell and the NTSB will make there ruling when all the data has been analyzed.

3 overruns? Do you know something that I don't know?

 

[GuppyWN]

The other two he speaks of are BUR and PHX. Bur speaks for itself and PHX was due to improper runway lighting on a construction shortened runway back in 2001. The pilots were exonerated COMPLETELY on that one - a point he failed to mention.

Gup

 

[Jim Smyth]

OK, I thought he was talking about BNA.

 

[GuppyWN]

Jim, anybody ever tell you to quit while you're ahead ?

Gup

 

[FatesPawn]

Are you telling us that SWA is allowed to use reverse thrust as part of data for determining stopping distance? I think you would be a solo act in that regard. I have never heard of such a thing.

Mugs,

You're making my point for me. Many of the flightinfo gods of aviation have never heard of such a thing.

Perhaps I can teach a few old dogs new tricks.

I am absolutely positively saying that the 737-700 operated by Southwest Airlines uses reverse thrust to determine stopping margin.

You see, all these armchair quarterbacks talking about how reverse thrust doesn't matter are dead wrong. So we all need to step back, and let the NTSB do the investigating and stop our uneducated speculation.

Fate

 

[FatesPawn]

1. Airlines dispatch based on FACTORED landing distance. Your max landing weight for a particular runway is based on DRY condition, with NO THRUST REVERSE. Wet data is usually published, but mostly for jet approach minima regulation.

2. When a runway is CONTAMINTATED, you must use ACTUAL landing distance numbers for an equivalent contaiminate. That data DOES consider the use of THRUST REVERSE.

What airline do you fly for?
What airplane do you fly?

You are wrong for a SWA 737-700

Fate

 

[FatesPawn]

I am pretty certain that aircraft certification as well as normal operations must be calculated without thrust reversers. That is why no one can find tables for landing with thrust reversers. Landing calculations must take into account all parameters and actual weather, including runway conditions. Thrust reversers are just "extra" for safety, they help decrease wear/heat to the braking system. It should not have mattered that the thrust reversers didn't work or that the Capt had trouble with the levers. The only thing this could have affected is the Capt may have spent so much time dicking with the reversers instead of pushing on the brakes.

FNG

This is not true for a SWA 737-700.

Fate

 

[Mugs]

Mugs,

You're making my point for me. Many of the flightinfo gods of aviation have never heard of such a thing.

Perhaps I can teach a few old dogs new tricks.

I am absolutely positively saying that the 737-700 operated by Southwest Airlines uses reverse thrust to determine stopping margin.

You see, all these armchair quarterbacks talking about how reverse thrust doesn't matter are dead wrong. So we all need to step back, and let the NTSB do the investigating and stop our uneducated speculation.

Fate

Fine. Thanks for the information. Now we will just see if good judgement supported the use of that data or not. Most old dogs know a thing or two about that.

 

[DA50pilot]

SWA Post

Great Post

Bob
PIE

OK Cross..... here I go.

MDW - yet to be determined. So 2 ATA guys diverted? What are THEIR procedures under these circumstances. Unless you know individual carriers ops it's impossible to determine what is "safe" in their eyes. IF the data says it's safe and legal to land then it's safe and legal. Let's wait until the NTSB completes their investigation and releases data before we start crusifying the crew. I'm sure running off the runway was not in the agenda.

AA killed 256 people in 2001 because the pilot flying input enough rudder movement to pull the tail off the airplane. The AA pilots in Cali killed how many people because they flew into a mountain after improperly programming to FMC? How many people died in Little Rock when an AA chief pilot tried to land in a thunderstorm and ran off the end of the runway?

But for the grace of God...... let's try to learn something from this and ALL be better for it.

This isn't about the Wright Ammendment or bad press. This is about an aircraft ACCIDENT in which a six year old boy passed away.

Show a little dignity!

Gup

 

[Oakum_Boy]

What airline do you fly for?
What airplane do you fly?

You are wrong for a SWA 737-700

Fate

Ok, so what info would a SWA crew consult when faced with a landing on a short cluttered rwy? I don't know SWA procedures. Every plane I've flown or typed in inculding the 737 has ALD published for levels of braking action or equivalent contaminate charts in others. Haven't been in those charts, I think ever. It isn't something one considers often.