More fallout from SWA crash - pax and rw length

[JohnDoe]

I wouldn't worry too much about it. The media will lose interest in the story in a couple of days, and the public will forget about it just as soon.

Remember the head of FEMA everybody was slamming after Katrina? After he "resigned" from his post, he was offered a "consulting" deal with the very same government entity (probably for more money, LOL). Never saw any backlash from that 'cause the public had moved on to the next story of the hour.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Anyone care to comment on how much the autobrake system actually affects stopping distance on a contaminated runway?

 

[mar]

Oh yeah!

I cant wait til the reporters hear about Flex/Reduced Power take-offs.

Or how about when they hear pilots *practice* taking off with one engine in the simulator!

 

[Crash Pad]

So I was reading in the paper that there was a 13 MPH tail wind... I don't know what that converts to in knots. Am I to understand that some of the most experienced pilots in the world not some rookies out of riddle but pilots with thousands of hours... Landed with a ten knot tailwind, in a blizzard, on a short runway, with braking fair in the touchdown zone and poor in the rollout area?

 

[FN FAL]

FN FAL

I sure hope you are kidding. From the evidence that has been released I think the "FEDS" had no nother choice but to deal with the situation. So what is your monday morning quarterback answer to what should have been done? You have a guy running down the aisle of a jet screaming he has a bomb in his backpack. He does not follow any orders given to him by ARMED sky marshals. He reaches into his backpack, You know, the one that he said had a bomb. Please tell me you were kidding.

SS

You seem like the kind of guy that would sit down on an airliner, look in the magazine pouch and upon seeing the bomb or simulated bomb, calmly disable the device and politely carry it out of the plane to the authorities. Then as you walk off the airliner, balloons and confetti will come from the ceiling, the flight crew, passengers, airport staff, TSA, airport police and the media will be there in a gauntlet of praise and applause. Music will be playing in the background.

BANG, BANG, BANG! You're dead...dream's over.

If you see a bomb on a plane and jump out of your seat, running off the plane screaming a warning of impending doom, you'll be lucky if the scheduling gods didn't put any armed men on your plane that day...because if they did, you'll be dead.

Think about it.

 

[P-Dawg_QX]

You seem like the kind of guy that would sit down on an airliner, look in the magazine pouch and upon seeing the bomb or simulated bomb, calmly disable the device and politely carry it out of the plane to the authorities. Then as you walk off the airliner, balloons and confetti will come from the ceiling, the flight crew, passengers, airport staff, TSA, airport police and the media will be there in a gauntlet of praise and applause. Music will be playing in the background.

BANG, BANG, BANG! You're dead...dream's over.

If you see a bomb on a plane and jump out of your seat, running off the plane screaming a warning of impending doom, you'll be lucky if the scheduling gods didn't put any armed men on your plane that day...because if they did, you'll be dead.

Think about it.

Wow, I hadn't heard that there was a bomb on the airplane. How could I have missed this? Please provide the documentation that verifies this so we can all be enlightened.

*chirp chirp chirp*

That's what I thought.

 

[SuperFLUF]

Anyone care to comment on how much the autobrake system actually affects stopping distance on a contaminated runway?

The 737-700 manual actually shows a 10 ft longer stop with max autobrakes over max manual brakes in poor braking conditions.

Fair braking conditions allows max manual braking to stop 50 ft shorter than max AB.

The variable of course is when and how the pilot applies max manual braking.

 

[FN FAL]

Wow, I hadn't heard that there was a bomb on the airplane. How could I have missed this? Please provide the documentation that verifies this so we can all be enlightened.

*chirp chirp chirp*

That's what I thought.

When there isn't a bomb on the plane, the government is required to find a retard and murder them, it's the law.

 

[FedEx1]

There is a lot more to this than you will hear on CNN. The Midway airport has to takeoff and land the same direction as OHare. They wont switch around the runways at Midway until it gets to be a real 10 knot tailwind, which is the max. Then they have to switch around both airports. As a result, the wind reading you get from controllers are always kinda suspect. Not to mention where the reading is taken (probably with the airport wall reducing the speed.)

They haven't mentioned where the plane touched down. But they did say what speed it touched down at, and that seems like a correct speed for a -700. (Indicated airspeed.) The approach requires 3000 RVR, unless SWA got something less from the Feds. (this is a special figure for ATA anyways. I assume they have it too.) They had the reported vis as required. And you CANNOT have clutter on the runway to land. The airport is actually pretty good about keeping it clean in general, but I have no idea about this night.

However, I know for a fact that more than one ATA flight diverted that night because they wanted 13C and ATC wouldn't give it to them.

As for Wolf and his less than max power rant... I say we all send him the data that shows more engines FAIL on takeoff at max power settings, and the wear and tear it does on them.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

FN FAL
Name one other incident where this has happened? Armed air marshal shooting ANYBODY! This is the first Ever unless you are going to pull some bull$hit story out of your black hellicopter government conspiracy websites. There are many times every year where people find notes or evidence to show there might be a bomb on the airplane and nobody has been shot. I hope you are just trying to stir the pot, because yours have been some of the most illogical statments on this web board. And that is saying something.

SS

 

[LegacyDriver]

So autobrake is clearly a non-issue in this case as I heard braking action at rollout was fir/poor.

Now the pilot (I presume Captain -- the media just said pilot as if there is only one) is being sued by the family. What a crock of horsesh*t...


This is why pilots should make as much as we think we should. One thing like this and you are ruined.

The NTSB said the Captain had problems getting the reverser levers into the up position. A light quartering tailwind...a bounce...a lighter than usual load on the wheels...WOW logic stops bucket deployment... ????

 

[Falcon Jet 1]

actually less than 10 feet on both radio altimeters or ground on the air/ ground switch, then the reversers can be deployed. they can be deployed in the air if less than 10 feet.

 

[LegacyDriver]

I stand corrected. Legacy is WOW. Spoilers are WOW on 737 right?

Transport cat cert for landing distance is done without reversers IIRC, so length is really noy the issue. Contamination is and perhaps certification (test pilots with perfect airplanes and perfect procedure execution vs the average pilot in varying conditions).

They said the Captain had trouble getting the levers up for deployment. Not sure what that says.

 

[FedEx1]

Legacy's right. Landing data does not include reversers. (Anyway, even if the plane had had autobrakes, and reversers were deployed, the autobrake system lets up on the brakes as more and more reverse thrust is attained. Take out the reversers, you get more brakes.)

My understanding of the 737, though, is that the reversers can unlock at weight on the main wheels, but the engine will not go into reverse until nose wheel touchdown. The RA 10 thing is another safety thing built in for reverser unlock, kind of a back up. But the WOW is still required to get them unlocked.

How do they know the captain had trouble getting the reverse levers up? Wasn't his NTSB interview confidential? Or maybe not....

 

[LegacyDriver]

I am not sure. Some NTSB spokesperson on CNN (I was channel flipping and stopped) said the Captain had problems getting the reverser levers up after touchdown. Presumably this affected stopping distance. Once the crew realized they were going to go off the end they applied max braking.


Legacy requires WOW (mains) to deploy buckets. You can get reverse without weight on the nosegear but mainwheels must be spinning above 25 knots (I think).

With a quartering TW and a few extra knots you can wheelie down the runway a long way in reverse until you apply brakes. I have found a tendency among ERJ drivers to refrain from tapping the brakes in this condition because it can slam the nose down pretty hard. Maybe the SWA crew was in a similar frame of mind subconsciously.