More fallout from SWA crash - pax and rw length

[FatesPawn]

LegacyDriver:

>>>Transport cat cert for landing distance is done without reversers IIRC, so length is really noy the issue.<<<

FedEx1:

>>>Legacy's right. Landing data does not include reversers. (Anyway, even if the plane had had autobrakes, and reversers were deployed, the autobrake system lets up on the brakes as more and more reverse thrust is attained. Take out the reversers, you get more brakes.)<<<

Attention Attention Attention Armchair Quarterbacks of Aviation:

The 737-700 flown by Southwest Airlines absolutely positively DOES include thrust reverse in the stopping distance computations in the scenario that happened that night.

This is a perfect example of people who don't fly our equipement and people who don't use our procedures making assumptions over what information the Captain had at his fingertips.

Please, Please, Please stop your speculating.

Fate
-SWA pilot

 

[Mugs]

LegacyDriver:

>>>Transport cat cert for landing distance is done without reversers IIRC, so length is really noy the issue.<<<

FedEx1:

>>>Legacy's right. Landing data does not include reversers. (Anyway, even if the plane had had autobrakes, and reversers were deployed, the autobrake system lets up on the brakes as more and more reverse thrust is attained. Take out the reversers, you get more brakes.)<<<

Attention Attention Attention Armchair Quarterbacks of Aviation:

The 737-700 flown by Southwest Airlines absolutely positively DOES include thrust reverse in the stopping distance computations in the scenario that happened that night.

This is a perfect example of people who don't fly our equipement and people who don't use our procedures making assumptions over what information the Captain had at his fingertips.

Please, Please, Please stop your speculating.

Fate
-SWA pilot

Are you telling us that SWA is allowed to use reverse thrust as part of data for determining stopping distance? I think you would be a solo act in that regard. I have never heard of such a thing.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Are you telling us that SWA is allowed to use reverse thrust as part of data for determining stopping distance? I think you would be a solo act in that regard. I have never heard of such a thing.

1. Airlines dispatch based on FACTORED landing distance. Your max landing weight for a particular runway is based on DRY condition, with NO THRUST REVERSE. Wet data is usually published, but mostly for jet approach minima regulation.

2. When a runway is CONTAMINTATED, you must use ACTUAL landing distance numbers for an equivalent contaiminate. That data DOES consider the use of THRUST REVERSE.

 

[LegacyDriver]

I will stick with my assertion (based on memory--always suspect) that stopping distances for transport category airplanes are calculated without reversers. The ERJ has reversers as an option not standard equipment so I do know all its #s are based on brakes only.


Can someone look in the FARs for us?

Edit in: does Aircraft Performance Group Data encorporate reversers?

 

[Oakum_Boy]

I will stick with my assertion (based on memory--always suspect) that stopping distances for transport category airplanes are calculated without reversers. The ERJ has reversers as an option not standard equipment so I do know all its #s are based on brakes only.


Can someone look in the FARs for us?

Depends on the equipment. If you don't have it, you can't use it.

 

[LegacyDriver]

Well the only manufacturer numbers I have for my plane are brakes-only. Can't find reverser #s in the aom and don't recall if APG data was with TRs (my guess is it was also without). That with certification criteria led me to believe that KMDW's ALD was sufficient for a 737 w/o TRs.

Sorry.

 

[FNG320]

I am pretty certain that aircraft certification as well as normal operations must be calculated without thrust reversers. That is why no one can find tables for landing with thrust reversers. Landing calculations must take into account all parameters and actual weather, including runway conditions. Thrust reversers are just "extra" for safety, they help decrease wear/heat to the braking system. It should not have mattered that the thrust reversers didn't work or that the Capt had trouble with the levers. The only thing this could have affected is the Capt may have spent so much time dicking with the reversers instead of pushing on the brakes.

Has anone who is familiar with this version of the 737 done the calculations for this type of aircraft, with the posted load and with published weather. Were they legal to land? I don't want to badmouth the crew, I just want to now the facts.

Just my opinion......

FNG

 

[sf260pilot]

So I was reading in the paper that there was a 13 MPH tail wind... I don't know what that converts to in knots. Am I to understand that some of the most experienced pilots in the world not some rookies out of riddle but pilots with thousands of hours... Landed with a ten knot tailwind, in a blizzard, on a short runway, with braking fair in the touchdown zone and poor in the rollout area?

You do not know this simple conversion? Do you really need to be posting questions then?

 

[Oakum_Boy]

I am pretty certain that aircraft certification as well as normal operations must be calculated without thrust reversers. That is why no one can find tables for landing with thrust reversers. Landing calculations must take into account all parameters and actual weather, including runway conditions. Thrust reversers are just "extra" for safety, they help decrease wear/heat to the braking system. It should not have mattered that the thrust reversers didn't work or that the Capt had trouble with the levers. The only thing this could have affected is the Capt may have spent so much time dicking with the reversers instead of pushing on the brakes.

Has anone who is familiar with this version of the 737 done the calculations for this type of aircraft, with the posted load and with published weather. Were they legal to land? I don't want to badmouth the crew, I just want to now the facts.

Just my opinion......

FNG

What makes you think that Part 25 aircraft have to be certifed to land on a snow-covered runway? The AFM will contain actual landing distance numbers for contaminated runways. These numbers are engineered numbers. Numbers that have been derived from testing on dry runways. They don't go out and land on ice-covered runways to see how far they slide off. Plus, you must know that thrust reversers are THE key to stopping on a contaminated runway. Decreasing wear/heat? Puhlease! Methinks you are not as experinced as your profile would purport.

Dry factored, actual landing distance= no thrust reverse

Wet factored, actual / Contaminated actual= thrust reverser(s) servicable

It is amazing the lack of understanding. No better than CNN I must say!

 

[LJDRVR]

Let's see here:

FN FAL-You fancy yourself an expert on all matters small arms and law enforcement, even though there are those on this board with far more real-world experience than you in both areas. Anybody that profers up an opinion on either matter is a target for your worldly-wise scorn, derision and sufferage as you sarcastically tutor us hayseeds on the reality of the situation, with the added bonus of us basking in the glorious warmth of your contrived (And entirely unjustified) air of superiority. YAWN.... You're just another one of us morons posting on the stupid internet. Get over yourself Deputy Fife.

Crash Pad (And other brain-addled armchair quarterback pilots) If you think you're not capable of finding yourself in the same situation as our two brothers at SWA, you are so totally full of excrement it's not even funny.

"Am I to understand that some of the most experienced pilots in the world..."
-you write.

No, you do not understand. Most likely you never will. Hundreds of pilots who are far better aviators than you or I could ever hope to be, have gotten to meet Elvis for one reason ore another. Our job is keep it from happening to us, not point fingers when we (read that YOU goober) don't even understand what happened.

Rant off, back to more constructive activities.

My heartfelt thoughts and prayers to my brothers at WN and the family of the 6 year old. I couldn't even begin to imagine...