More cuts coming at Netjets????

[xrated]

I didn't say you were going BK, since you are backed by a giant called Berkshire Hathaway. Buffet wouldn't allow it.
Bye Bye---General Lee

Never say never. The attitude has always been "Uncle Warren would never let that happen", and the quote is still heard as 475+ pilots head to the unemployment line. Regradless of how successful "Uncle Warren" has been, the current market forces are even bigger than BH and Warren. Other latent forces should always be considered. Buffet is no spring chicken, and if NetJets is the dog it may be, BH may dump it. How many more "chiefs" will Warren bring in to save it before they throw in the towel? Lets all hope that the ship can be saved, none of us want to see any more pilots on the streets. And maybe yes, "Uncle Warren" and Co. may save the day.

 

[xrated]

As long as Marquis Cards continue to sell like hotcakes you will need a rather large fleet to accomodate.

If the Marquis cards/flying doesn't cover the costs of a large fleet, then they will stop selling the cards. I'm sure the new guy is looking at it.

 

[gunfyter]

I don't say never.

But unless there is a financial collapse of the United States ... this economy will return to Prosperity. And when it does ... so will Fractional Jet Sales.

Its a matter of survival for all the players until that happens. Preserving Capital. NJ got caught with their pants down when this economic sunami hit. With too many aircraft orders and too many pilots hired. Hiring pilots in advance for expected deliveries of 60 or more planes per year.

A simple glance at AirlinePilotCentral.com and some 5th grade algebra ...

NJ currently employs about 6.5 pilots for every airplane. The other Fracs employ about 4.0 per ship.

After the furloughs there will be about 5.5 pilots per ship.
​

I would expect us to maintain about that many per ship. If the number of aircraft is reduced ... that won't be good. So we definitely need demand to stabilize NOW ... and then increase.

The economy isn't great ... but I think it is on an upswing and hopefully the worst is over. Buy Low Sell high ... this is the time to buy Netjets -- NOT Sell.

 

[johnsonrod]

In line? Downsizing (furlough) is in the contract.

Lower pay and benefits ... When would you predict this?

I have a contract until May 2013... with extension possible till 2015. (And a Pen whose ink I only use to check the NO block on ballots.) I am thinking I will see no changes as long as I can vote NO.

I ask because I haven't been there before --as you have.... Do you see any probability your prediction could happen before 2013? I want to be prepared.

Anything is possible ... but I am hoping and betting the Economy and the Business Jet business will be largely recovered by May 2013.

Good Luck to you as well General Lee... Happy Chanukah and Merry Christmas.

Looking at the recent articles, your fleet may be cut in half before 2013.

 

[gunfyter]

Looking at the recent articles, your fleet may be cut in half before 2013.

What if it is? How does that affect the contract?

I think many of these articles contain more misinformation than truth.

Remember: The public ALWAYS overreacts... That's why the DOW went to $6K only a few months ago and now is about $10.5K


Aircraft Values:

The majority of losses reported were decline in aircraft values... We still have the aircraft.

Lets say that between NOW and 2013 ... aircraft values recover by 1/2 of what we lost in values since last year.... and that the reported losses were $500M in aircraft value.

Well then ... we are looking at reporting $250M in profit due to increased aircraft valuation.

Just like this year my 401K has recovered 70% of the massive losses I took last year... This year I am showing a large GAIN.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Looking at the recent articles, your fleet may be cut in half before 2013.

A fleet that size couldn't cover the owner demand of an average Tuesday let alone a peak demand day. Even now.

Hate to break it to you, the General, and a handful of folks that know nothing of our business, but the ship has been righted, the pumps are working, and the hatches are battened down to ride out this storm.

"Finance is a gun. Politics is knowing when to pull the trigger." Sokol knows how and when to pull the trigger. Thanks for your concern though.

 

[Pervis]

I'll believe the inside status reports from the current leadership before I'll believe any speculative articles. The last 4-6 weeks of business updates have been very positive. Sorry, disclosing details is above my pay grade. The trend is definitely indicating things are stabilizing, if not slowly improving. If some other unforseen calamity occurs, all bets are off. Of course, that affects everyone.

What's more disturbing than current economics is the number of fellow pilots who seem to be drooling over the troubles of others. Following negative diatribes with 'gook luck......' is BS. Why not be glad for other's success, empathize with those in trouble, and make every effort in controling/improving your own status rather than trying to drag down everyone to your level of misery.

 

[Dingo221]

Oh yeah,
Net Jets has troubles, the world shakes, Flight Options has the same issues, it is just a joke to you.
Well when you only have a few planes, Flops will come to your rescue.
Merry Christmas !!!!!!!!!!

 

[johnsonrod]

I'll believe the inside status reports from the current leadership before I'll believe any speculative articles. The last 4-6 weeks of business updates have been very positive. Sorry, disclosing details is above my pay grade. The trend is definitely indicating things are stabilizing, if not slowly improving. If some other unforseen calamity occurs, all bets are off. Of course, that affects everyone.

What's more disturbing than current economics is the number of fellow pilots who seem to be drooling over the troubles of others. Following negative diatribes with 'gook luck......' is BS. Why not be glad for other's success, empathize with those in trouble, and make every effort in controling/improving your own status rather than trying to drag down everyone to your level of misery.

Hey, I support you guys at Netjets. Who wants to see pilots in the unemployment line? Not me. I bet a bunch of low-seniority Netjets pilots (who are now potentially impacted) probably left solid airline positions to go to Netjets - and for good reason because the Netjets offer (salary, QOL, schedule and quality of aircraft) was excellent. I am just trying to understand the impact of potential changes and I am responding to the article at the beginning of the post.

I sincerely hope things don't turn out as bad as some might think. Netjets is still the gold standard in the fractional business. You never know what will happen in the aviation business...

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Not fun, I have been there already. But, I married rich. (not a guy named Rich, just a girl with a better job than mine) Just remember, you can fall in love with a rich girl just as fast as you can fall in love with a poor one.

Socioeconomically, men tend to marry down, while woman marry up. Often it doesn't work well the other way around. You must be quite the stud muffin.

It is true a rich girl may fall in love with a pauper like myself, but usually its short-lived if you don't have the proper pedigree for family life, lifestyle, etc.

 

[gunfyter]

Oh yeah,
Net Jets has troubles, the world shakes, Flight Options has the same issues, it is just a joke to you.
Well when you only have a few planes, Flops will come to your rescue.
Merry Christmas !!!!!!!!!!

Excuse me, Mr Dingo.

Do you feel some at NJ have been insensitive to your plight?

I know the feeling. On this board ... go back to 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, and 2005 ...

Read all the posts of (some) pilots from every Fractional in business at the time ... harassing and ridiculing NJ pilots... Mercilessly

How dumb we were for working for NJ... How dumb we were for being union .... How much better off FLOPS pilots were... Flexjets guys were, etc., etc..

That said. Best of Luck to you and all at FLOPS ... I am rooting for your union and against B19 and all union-busting scum....

 

[hammer2]

Gun, I didn't mean a thing I wrote. I was just having problems with my wife that day so I just took it out on Netjets.

 

[gret]

"Socioeconomically, men tend to marry down, while woman marry up."

If men are marrying down, doesn't that mean women don't have a choice other to be marrying up? What did I miss?

 

[hammer2]

True beauty is in the "eyes of the beer holder".

 

[gunfyter]

Gun, I didn't mean a thing I wrote. I was just having problems with my wife that day so I just took it out on Netjets.

Its all good Hammer...

I don't remember you being one of the naysayers...

I try not to kick a man while he is down or gloat when I am riding high.... But in my exuberance when we finally achieved our goal ... I am sure (for a while) I let the naysayers know they were wrong.

I am not in control of the Economy ... or how management handles it .... Like every other pilot, we do our part by doing our jobs as well as we can.

I don't think the future of Fractional is as bleak as some want to paint it. I think the "analyst" quoted in the article was a former Flexjets salesman ... If he is so good... Why did Flex let him go? I have seen his stuff in the past and its mostly been wrong.

 

[GerryG]

Oh yeah,
Net Jets has troubles, the world shakes, Flight Options has the same issues, it is just a joke to you.
Well when you only have a few planes, Flops will come to your rescue.
Merry Christmas !!!!!!!!!!

The issues are industry wide right now genius. I don't remember seeing anyone from NJ on here making a joke of our 3 rounds of furloughs. The last thing we need is distention between our two pilot groups. After all we are the only two unionized groups in the industry so far. If the Flops pilots strike, I'm sure the NJ pilots will be there. Don't jeopardize that with this kind of crap.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

"Socioeconomically, men tend to marry down, while woman marry up."

If men are marrying down, doesn't that mean women don't have a choice other to be marrying up? What did I miss?

Nothing. Same difference. Can be stated either way. Vice versa not as often. However, not ALL men and women get married, so there.

 

[gret]

"Socioeconomically, men tend to marry down, while woman marry up."

If men are marrying down, doesn't that mean women don't have a choice other to be marrying up? What did I miss?

Nothing. Same difference. Can be stated either way. Vice versa not as often. However, not ALL men and women get married, so there.

OK! I got it! Whew! I can go have a drink now as my mind kept going in circles (which is normal).

 

[notapilot]

It appears Netjets is simply now really starting to do what we have done at Flexjet for years. Year after year we have significantly reduced waste and have been lean to the point of starvation in some cases. Even in the economic good times we were tightening our belt. We didn't have fancy Superbowl or Kentucky Derby ads and we even let some owners leave for Netjets because we were unwilling to provide the freebies you were handing out for big name endorsements. I assume we felt that if we have a good product the business will come and we didn't have to give the company away to achieve our goals. Our goal was and still is operational profitability which we were able to achieve even considering the small operational margins in the fractional business. That is actually a pretty amazing feat. Sure it was frustrating watching others expand at unbelievable rates during the good times while we were much more conservative in our growth. IMO, in the long run we are better off slow and steady as frustrating as it sometimes is. There will have to be some changes in how you conduct your business in order to compete and achieve steady economic growth. Change is not always bad.

 

[jppt2000]

You don't think that is bad? It is bad when it comes to your pay and benefits. How much do you currently pay for medical benefits? Nothing, right? I bet that will go bye bye. How about your cushy food off of menus? Sounds great, but expensive. He is going to slash and burn, and I don't think that is good. That sucks. But, it has happened elsewhere, and it will happen again. The point is NOBODY is safe, even if Capt Dad thinks he is invincible. Not trying to be pessimistic, rather a realist. Hey, we had the same thing happen to us, and people at the top usually fall down eventually. Good luck again, you will need it.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Envious troll, trying to resurrect a thread where he couldn't accept the fact he's unknowingly ingested huge amounts of pubic hair, feces, and/or bodily fluids from flight attendants he's insulted over the years.
Misery loves company.

 

[notapilot]

Oops. With that said, I don't think our crewmember packages are too far off. Much of the waste elimination will be operational from within. I would guess that the biggest change you might see is a more efficient crew scheduling system. This is probably the biggest $ saver that might affect the crews.

 

[On Your Six]

Which fleets likely impacted?

Tough to speculate at the moment, but if 150+ aircraft end up leaving, which fleets are most likely going to be targeted? I imagine many of the older and less-utilized aircraft will be targeted first.

I am guessing the Ultra/Encore and maybe the Beechjet fleet based on utilization. I know a guy on the Encore who maybe flew 100-150 hours last year when it wasn't broken. Although Netjets might want to keep a relatively low-cost aircraft in its lineup. Maybe they will keep the Encore+ or the XLS/XLS+ as the entry aircraft - who knows... Tough situation for all involved.

 

[jonjuan]

Netjets is still the gold standard in the fractional business. .

Based on what, price? gunfiters falcon is $14k an hour through maqquis. They gotta pay for their upcoming super ads somehow

 

[gunfyter]

I think you might be about 40% off ....

 

[General Lee]

Also, could anyone explain to me how General Lee is all of a sudden a subject matter expert on fractional flying? Maybe someone should remind him of our all-time high record flying day a couple weeks ago?

That is fantastic, it was called Thanksgiving. But, it looks like your CEO is on the war path. That aint good. We went through the same thing, and it wasn't fun. He wants heads to roll, so Buffet can promote him to head Berkshire Hathaway. Seriously, good luck.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Envious troll, trying to resurrect a thread where he couldn't accept the fact he's unknowingly ingested huge amounts of pubic hair, feces, and/or bodily fluids from flight attendants he's insulted over the years.
Misery loves company.

Envious? No way. I really enjoy my job at Delta. I go to fun places and I am paid well. My last couple trips were to Germany, and I had some really tasty beer there. My wife makes more than I do as an Ad exec, and I "tell it like it is" on FI. Just suck it up and know that Netjets is gonna get "leaner." At the same time though, try not to get "meaner" on FI, will ya? I wish the best for you guys, no doubt. PEACE!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Socioeconomically, men tend to marry down, while woman marry up. Often it doesn't work well the other way around. You must be quite the stud muffin.

It is true a rich girl may fall in love with a pauper like myself, but usually its short-lived if you don't have the proper pedigree for family life, lifestyle, etc.

Say what? I met my wife at a Buckhead disco and we danced all night all the way to bed. It was fantastic, and I then realized I woke up in her penthouse apartment. (her family had a large business in ATL) Been FANTASTIC ever since. Sure, I could have met someone not as rich and probably still have been happy, but I sure like Steak everynight instead of McDonalds..... I actually eat dinner with a fork most nights! I use a new razor each day, and my socks don't have holes in them. I feel great.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[glasspilot]

<---Doesn't use a new razor each day and some socks do have some holes. Guess my life sux...

 

[Ultra Grump]

Say what? I met my wife at a Buckhead disco and we danced all night all the way to bed. It was fantastic, and I then realized I woke up in her penthouse apartment. (her family had a large business in ATL) Been FANTASTIC ever since. Sure, I could have met someone not as rich and probably still have been happy, but I sure like Steak everynight instead of McDonalds..... I actually eat dinner with a fork most nights! I use a new razor each day, and my socks don't have holes in them. I feel great.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I knew you were a tool when you were constantly baiting regional pilots, but you've outdone yourself here. SOMEONE BUILD A BIGGER SHED, QUICK! Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[imacdog]

That is fantastic, it was called Thanksgiving. But, it looks like your CEO is on the war path. That aint good. We went through the same thing, and it wasn't fun. He wants heads to roll, so Buffet can promote him to head Berkshire Hathaway. Seriously, good luck.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I said of all time, not just this year.

NetJets may be in for some house cleaning but you really have no idea how the operation works or what you consider to be excessive is completely normal. Remember how different the product is between my company and yours. Now, back in line at the food court in Concourse A for you.