More CAL

[Flopgut]

This thread should die but I have a bit more to say.

Neal, it could matter less what the exact term was at the time XJT pilots got hired. The result is there are a lot of XJT pilots at CAL. Fact. In the above posts there are almost 550 pilots who are, or are going to be hired by CAL, in less than a decade. By percentage of total hiring, that is a lot. I don't know what you can compare this to and decide it is a bad deal.

I'm confident the 236 pilots will fly for CAL. I think they should apply elsewhere just for good measure. God forbid they experience the seemingly futile anguish of a real full interview process elsewhere. (I know that comment will get your undies in a bind, but it is true) I think for a continued hiring relationship with XJT the process should pattern the past methodologies, and that has been to intergrate with other hiring. I hope that works, if not, then maybe these 236 pilots should conclude our relationship and we take the flow through to another carrier.

 

[Flopgut]

For CAL applicants/interviewees:

Don't do what I did. You get your first seniority list and you see all the XJT guys/gals, and you think "wow". And then you meet some of them and you extend a handshake and say (something like) "hey, thats cool, good for you!" WRONG thing to do. They hate it, and you did not just make a friend, despite your best efforts.

 

[ackattacker]

I'm a totally outside observer but I can't let this go on... I don't see how cactus can make his point any clearer.

I'm confident the 236 pilots will fly for CAL. I think they should apply elsewhere just for good measure. God forbid they experience the seemingly futile anguish of a real full interview process elsewhere. (I know that comment will get your undies in a bind, but it is true)

The point being made was that those specific 236 pilots were ALREADY PROMISED A JOB at CAL. Not an interview, not "integration with other new hires", a JOB. Why should they interview elsewhere if they can take CAL at its word?

I think for a continued hiring relationship with XJT the process should pattern the past methodologies, and that has been to intergrate with other hiring. I hope that works, if not, then maybe these 236 pilots should conclude our relationship and we take the flow through to another carrier.

How many times has this been said? THERE IS NO FLOW THROUGH FROM XJT TO CAL. There is no "continued hiring relationship". There is not even preferential interviewing! There is no flow through period! They will not take their flow through to another carrier, because THERE IS NO FLOW THROUGH. Shall I say it again? All that there exists is 236 XJT pilots who were promised jobs at CAL years ago and have yet to get them, while of the street new hires get seniority numbers ahead of them.

Gawd. I swear, I don't work for CAL or XJT nor do I have an app in at either. But I can imagine that a XJT PIG might not be to happy to have an off the street new-hire tell him how lucky he is to get a job at CAL.

 

[Thedude]

How about your not a CAL employee until you get a employee number.
Just because a job offer has been made does not make you an employee. They can still retract the job offer.

 

[zonker]

Continental Profit Outlook Brightens
By SUSAN WARREN
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
June 3, 2005; Page B2

Continental Airlines reported strong improvement last month in a key measure of airline revenue, continuing a streak that could return the carrier to profitability.

Houston-based Continental said its consolidated unit revenue, or revenue spread over each seat-mile flown, leaped up as much as 9.5% in May compared to the same period a year ago, nearly double the increase analysts had expected. Continental attributed the gains to more passengers filling its seats, creating more demand that has enabled the carrier to raise fares. Last week, U.S. airlines pushed through their eighth fare increase this year.

As a result, analysts predicted Continental would report a profit in the second quarter or at least break even after having posted a $184 million loss in the first quarter. The size of the revenue increase "all but assures a second-quarter profit despite surging energy costs," said Jamie Baker, an analyst with JP Morgan.

The outlook for most of the U.S. industry remains gloomy. Ray Neidl, an analyst with Calyon Securities, still expects traditional hub-and-spoke carriers will lose about $1 billion in the second quarter combined and over $5.5 billion for the year, with some still facing liquidity issues.

Still, Continental soared to a 52-week high, rising $1.10, or 8.1%, to $14.67 at 4 p.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. Also on the Big Board, American Airlines parent AMR Corp. rose 99 cents, or 7.8%, to $13.72 and discount king Southwest Airlines rose 18 cents, or 1.2%, to $14.68. Northwest Airlines rose 47 cents, or 8%, to $6.38 in Nasdaq Stock Market composite trading.

Unlike most other airlines, Continental reports monthly revenue-per-seat figures, so its monthly results often serve as an overall industry bellwether.

The airline industry has been bogged down in heavy losses as skyrocketing fuel costs outstripped carriers' efforts to cut costs, fill seats and raise fares. In the first quarter, for instance, Continental reported an increase in load factor, or the percentage of seats filled, while unit revenue was up 3.8% in the quarter. But fuel prices rose 39.5%, boosting Continental's total consolidated costs in the period by 5.4%. So while its revenue spread over every seat-mile flown was 9.61 cents, its cost per seat mile was 11.35 cents.

But the strength of May's revenue increase, following smaller increases in April and March, could indicate the carrier is beginning to overcome the fuel handicap. Continental also reported a 4.7-point jump in load factor, filling 79.1% of its seats compared to May 2004. Together with the airline's success in cutting costs, Continental's "underlying profitability is improving rapidly," concluded Goldman Sachs analyst Glenn Engel in a note to investors.

Separately, United Airlines parent UALCorp. said it had a net loss of $124 million in April, a deficit that included $28 million of expenses related to its bankruptcy-court reorganization. For the month, the Chicago carrier said its operating loss of $47 million was narrower than the $75 million operating loss a year earlier, despite a fuel bill that was $91 million higher this April than last. UAL said its cost to fly a seat a mile for its mainline jet network increased 7% on a 4% reduction in capacity. Excluding fuel, mainline unit costs fell 2%.

---- Susan Carey contributed to this article

​

Write to Susan Warren at [email protected]

 

[Flopgut]

There is no "continued hiring relationship". There is not even preferential interviewing! There is no flow through period! They will not take their flow through to another carrier, because THERE IS NO FLOW THROUGH. Shall I say it again?--ackattack

From CAL 02 contract summary:

When hiring, the company will provide preferential interviews to pilots from express carriers and will seek similiar protections for CAL pilots in agreements with express carriers.

--Hmm?

But I can imagine that a XJT PIG might not be to happy to have an off the street new-hire tell him how lucky he is to get a job at CAL.--ackattack

I am talking about my experience with flow throughs between 1997 and 2001.

 

[nimtz]

From CAL 02 contract summary:

When hiring, the company will provide preferential interviews to pilots from express carriers and will seek similiar protections for CAL pilots in agreements with express carriiers.

--Hmm?

Those are vague words my friend, which aren't worth the cost of the paper to print it. I can assure you if CAL ALPA offers pref interviews, but expects any future CAL furloughs to get intergrated doh at the 'express carriers' ala FTA, they will be told to go away. In the end provision won't mean squat.

But I can imagine that a XJT PIG might not be to happy to have an off the street new-hire tell him how lucky he is to get a job at CAL.--ackattack

I am talking about my experience with flow throughs between 1997 and 2001.

Well at this rate I don't think I can tell a PIG he is lucky to get a job at CAL. After all CAL doesn't appear to want them working here. Yes you can imagine why it sucks for the PIGS cause you know seniority is everything in this business. Losing a year to someone makes the all the difference between left seat in five years or right seat for 15. There are enough guys at CAL who have shown me that story.

I've heard the stories from off the street CAL hires like you about attitude issues with the flowthroughs. I agree the chips on somes shoulders were completely uncalled for since they walked into a pretty sweat deal. While a few bad apples does spoil the bunch, your attitude is no different them me falsely assuming CAL is made up nothing more then '83 hires.

Many flowbacks hated Express when they came to work here. As the days went on they realized we are all in the same game as professionals and many actually had fun despite the furlough. People's perceptions can change quite nicely. Just the other day a buddy of mine who's an off the street guy told me he thinks CAL should hire as many Express guys as possible. To him it seems like the right thing to do given the past history. I told him I appreciated his notion, but that it wouldn't be happening anytime soon.

 

[Flopgut]

Those are vague words my friend, which aren't worth the cost of the paper to print it. I can assure you if CAL ALPA offers pref interviews, but expects any future CAL furloughs to get intergrated doh at the 'express carriers' ala FTA, they will be told to go away. In the end provision won't mean squat.--Nimtz

What is this deal with all the defeatism?

The 236 will come over at some point, and then hopefully more. If CAL has to hire all 236 at once I think the potential for future hiring will be spoiled. Bad apples are everywhere, but for the most part XJT pilots are great. That is my point, in part, more than just this 236 should have the chance if they want it. Now, almost to the man (or woman) they regard me with not-so-subtle disgust. But I can see they are good folks nonetheless.

Personally, I think 236 is going to be more than half of the total hiring CAL does this time. I would be careful what I wish for.

 

[ackattacker]

What is this deal with all the defeatism?

The 236 will come over at some point, and then hopefully more. If CAL has to hire all 236 at once I think the potential for future hiring will be spoiled.

If flow-through resumes as CAL I will eat my hat.

The only advantage of flow-through to a mainline carrier pilot group is the flow-back. Which no regional pilot group will agree to, now that they've seen the carnage that can result. Regionals like a flow through because it encourages senior guys to move on and offers a "benefit" to new hires which keeps the pilot pool fresh and helps hiring (read: low labor costs). But to the mainline, a one-way flow through offers no advantage. Hence, FTA's are basically finished except in cases where the mainline still has a significant financial stake in the regional carrier.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

This thread should die but I have a bit more to say.

Neal, it could matter less what the exact term was at the time XJT pilots got hired. The result is there are a lot of XJT pilots at CAL. Fact. In the above posts there are almost 550 pilots who are, or are going to be hired by CAL, in less than a decade. By percentage of total hiring, that is a lot. I don't know what you can compare this to and decide it is a bad deal.

Yes, it should die. Reason being is that CAL management has already made their decision on this issue and we should all move on from here. But against my better judgement...here goes...

Yes, there are a lot of XJT pilots at CAL right now...a few hundred came in the last 8 years. Why is that germaine to the discussion? It absolutely matters that this other group of pilots was hired (with signed letters) almost 3 years ago and there are now many pilots slotting in ahead of them who were hired in the past week...some of them with 1/4th the total flight time of these guys.

I'm confident the 236 pilots will fly for CAL. I think they should apply elsewhere just for good measure. God forbid they experience the seemingly futile anguish of a real full interview process elsewhere. (I know that comment will get your undies in a bind, but it is true) I think for a continued hiring relationship with XJT the process should pattern the past methodologies, and that has been to intergrate with other hiring. I hope that works, if not, then maybe these 236 pilots should conclude our relationship and we take the flow through to another carrier.

Yes, they one day will fly for CAL. And some will have lost hundreds of numbers and thousands of dollars of lost career income as a result of this issue. But as I said above, CAL management has made its decision and that decision is fully theirs to make.

They should apply elsewhere? Who are you to tell them where to apply? Especially when their "congratulations" letter mandates that in order to keep their job at CAL they have to stay at XJT. And some HAVE applied elsewhere...but last I checked, there are tens of thousands of pilots applying for hundreds of jobs.

This isn't about diversifying a hiring pool or not diversifying it...nobody at XJT has any issues with that idea.

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

For CAL applicants/interviewees:

Don't do what I did. You get your first seniority list and you see all the XJT guys/gals, and you think "wow". And then you meet some of them and you extend a handshake and say (something like) "hey, thats cool, good for you!" WRONG thing to do. They hate it, and you did not just make a friend, despite your best efforts.

Sounds to me like someone has judged several thousand pilots based on one or two bad apples. Should I tell you about the several bad apples that CAL sent back to XJT after 9/11?

-Neal

 

[aa73]

The Contract 97 XJT guys suffered quite a bit to provide jobs for furloughed CAL pilots post 9/11. I flew with many of these guys and they were great people that appreciated the opportunity they were given.

This is exactly what's happening with the American Eagle pilot group and the AA flowbacks... How many CAL pilots flowed back? I believe AA has about 300-400 at Eagle now. Very ugly environment. Did you guys have that problem too?

 

[Paul R. Smith]

This is exactly what's happening with the American Eagle pilot group and the AA flowbacks... How many CAL pilots flowed back? I believe AA has about 300-400 at Eagle now. Very ugly environment. Did you guys have that problem too?

At XJT we had about 386 (NEAL PLZ VERIFY THIS) CAL pilots.

 

[Waborita]

Flopgut just sounds like another uninformed ex-military guy who went to CAL,(probably scabbed to get his job) has no clue what civilians (Regional pilots) go through, definately does not where his ALPA pin. Probaly has never voted on issues at CALALPA, but definately voted YES for their concessions.

Like Flopgut said "this thread should die" unfortunately he won't shut up!

 

[jetexas]

Eagle has upwards of 450 flowbacks here now. It's approaching 500.
124 Eagle pilots flowed to AA, pre - 9/11. It's ugly.

 

[aa73]

Eagle has upwards of 450 flowbacks here now. It's approaching 500.
124 Eagle pilots flowed to AA, pre - 9/11. It's ugly.

Jetexas - So there are more that are coming? Because I was told that the April 1 furloughees are not getting trained, in anticipation of recalls. Right now they are saying 1Q '06.

73

 

[nimtz]

This is exactly what's happening with the American Eagle pilot group and the AA flowbacks... How many CAL pilots flowed back? I believe AA has about 300-400 at Eagle now. Very ugly environment. Did you guys have that problem too?

Xjet had early drama with the flowbacks. Reason being the flowbacks were p!ssed that they were getting furloughed from CAL so quick. If you look back, CAL furloughed the most guys percentage wise immediately after 9/11. So in other words, alot of flowbacks were po'd they lost their jobs while their buddies at AMR and NWA still had there's (eventhough for what turned out to be for a few more months). As a result a flowback would occasionally be overheard make a derogatory remark about having to work for XJet. Meanwhile the XJet's guys were po'd because our guys were going to the street and getting bumped back to FO. So the last thing an Xjet guy wanted to hear was a flowback b!tching about his/her new captain seat that use to belong to that Xjet pilot. Yes there were a few occasions of harsh words spoken and one case I know where a Xjet checkairmen was overly critical of a flowback on IOE.

After letting the steam settle a little, we all realized we had to work with each other and just got on with our jobs. In short time a flowback became just another line pilot for the most part. Now there were examples on both sides that kept grudges, but they were few and far between in my experience. As I've said before most of the flowbacks were a blast to fly with and in some sick way it's too bad I'll never fly a trip with many of them again.

As for Eagle, man I can't believe some of the junk I read that's going on over there reference flowbacks. Come on, fistfights in ops! I think the Eagle guys have a legit chip on their shoulder thanks to past actions of the 'fair' minded leadership of APA. Nevertheless the Xjet example is proof that somebody boned by a flowback process will be alot happier if they realize the flowback's dealing with the exact same job BS. That means go have a beer with him at the overnight. You might actually end up enjoying flying with the guy in the end.

 

[nimtz]

Flopgut just sounds like another uninformed ex-military guy who went to CAL,(probably scabbed to get his job) has no clue what civilians (Regional pilots) go through, definately does not where his ALPA pin. Probaly has never voted on issues at CALALPA, but definately voted YES for their concessions.

Like Flopgut said "this thread should die" unfortunately he won't shut up!

Kind of hard to scab if he was hired 97-01. You are smarter then that. Drop the scab stereotype already cause it ain't 1985 last I checked...

 

[Waborita]

Kind of hard to scab if he was hired 97-01. You are smarter then that. Drop the scab stereotype already cause it ain't 1985 last I checked...

I guess I should have added the rolling eyes . My point was he is stereo typing all xjet guys so I threw the same mud back. You are correct however!

 

[aa73]

As for Eagle, man I can't believe some of the junk I read that's going on over there reference flowbacks. Come on, fistfights in ops! I think the Eagle guys have a legit chip on their shoulder thanks to past actions of the 'fair' minded leadership of APA..

And therein lies the problem - the only pilots who think the APA is "fair-minded" are senior APA officials and a bunch of narrow-minded Sky Nazis - yes we have a lot of them. Unfortunately, in my short tenure at American (5+ years) I'm slowly starting to realize that the APA has a tendency to negotiate something and then, once it's agreed to, they try and back out of it. Sound familiar? Think Frank Lorenzo.

Anyways, the Eagle pilots do have a legit chip on their shoulder, as would I if I was over there. It's a raw deal for them, but just the same I wouldn't be fist fighting over it either. It's not worth risking your whole career over.