More CAL

[Cactus73]

Neal:

I am certainly not trying to endear myself to you, nor am I trying to offend you. By stating "the likes of you" I am saying you and your contemporaries at XJT, thats all.
-------------------
This thread is a very good one for pilots wishing to come to CAL to read. For those of you interested who will be hired off the street: You cannot imagine the ambush of contempt and disdain you are walking into. It won't matter what your background is or how hard you have worked to get your shot. From day one, the greenest XJT FO will curse the air you breath. Most CAL FOs have more years/hours professional experience than the sum total of the average XJT crew (perhaps even including the airplane they are in). The same is true for CAL pilot candidates that are off the street, the only thing that draws down this average is if you factor in the XJT flow throughs.

When you look at the history of this, I don't think you could find another major airline that has hired more pilots from its regional affiliate. The FTA did great things for a lot of pilots for a long time and I hope it continues. But the fact is, XJT pilots could care less what it has done in the past and what it could do in the future, they want it all and they want it right now. I hope those 236 get flowed into CAL hiring in a fashion silmiliar to the previous methodology, and that the company can build on it. And I hope they are all smart enough to at least try to work other places! Some of these pilots could go to FDX! They can't turn everyone down, come on! It has to be at least as much fun to make all that money as it is to mope around sucking on a lemon hoping CAL pilots die early!

My being on the outside now, I can see things in a more objective way. I must say Flopgut, you have no idea what you are talking about.

When I was hired at COEX I was told that I just needed to put in my time and eventually I will be at CAL. I drank the kool-aid and was the happiest FO ever. Guys were leaving to CAL and the list was moving. But far more were leaving for United, American, Northwest, Southwest, etc...CAL was running smaller classes than the above mentioned airlines and was only taking 1 COEX guy for every three off the street hires. But no one complained because guys were upgrading on the EMB-120's in less than 6 months and the RJ was holding at about 1 year. Things were good.

During this time COEX management briefed us on their plan to spin off COEX into a new company called ExpressJet Holdings, via an IPO. They told us that this deal would end all flow through agreements and we would become our own company with different benefits.

9/11 happened and they shelved the IPO due to the economic conditions of the airline business. During this time Continental elected to furlough a significant amount of pilots that were hired mostly after 1998. 928 pilots were eligible for the flowback. Only a third of these guys came from COEX.

They flowed back to our left seats and sent many of us back to the right seat on reserve in EWR. 400+ COEX guys hit the street on furlough.

CAL needed cash and decided to proceed with the IPO. As a bone to a small portion of the XJT seniority list, they offered to interview a small number of pilots that were hired before July 1998 (someone correct me if I have this date wrong). They flat our rejected a number of very qualified ERJ CA's. 200+ guys were accepted and given letters offering them employment at CAL once hiring resumed. These guys are now known as the PIG's.

NOTHING was offered to the vast majority of the seniority list that gave up quite a bit up to and including their JOBS in order to honor the flow through/back agreement.

Their peers at other airlines like CHQ, MESA, Skywest, etc... were all upgrading after 2-3 years (even after 9/11) but the XJT guys went backwards.

Fast forward to today. CAL is hiring again. Now they are playing games with these PIG pilots and taking them in ratios. Once again they are hurting the careers of the junior XJT pilots and the PIG pilots.

I was fortunate in that I was able to leave XJT for AWA at this time. I am eligible and was offered an interview at CAL. I think this is wrong that I can jump the list if I were to be hired ahead of people that were promised jobs. I think it is even more wrong for "off-the-street" guys to jump ahead of these guys. FWIW, I know of only one AWA pilot that has taken the offer and is leaving for CAL (no it's not me).

The XJT guys have thousands of hours of PIC time flying passengers in the CAL system. They all gave up quite a bit to enable CAL furloughed pilots to work at XJT and fly the left seat during their furlough.

To say that there are more qualified people and that CAL is justified in taking off the street guys is missing the point. Yes, CAL has the right to do this, but it doesn't make it right. The XJT guys have put up with a lot since 911. The least CAL management can do is to honor their promise to this small group of pilots. When I hired on at AWA, they stressed the importance of integrity. CAL management seems to lack this quality.

All I ask is that you put yourself in the shoes of the 6 year XJT FO or the PIG pilot before passing judgment.

I know I have.

 

[Flopgut]

Cactus:

I can tell you exactly what it is like to be an off the street hire at CAL and I am absolutely not confused about the situation here.

If I were a PIG or six year XJT pilot I would have a 50 percent increased likelihood of employment by CAL than someone with more than twice my qualifications.

There are far too many former XJT pilots who are working at CAL for all your assertions to be right. Do not make a mockery of what has been a great deal for a lot of pilots just because it has not come quick enough for you. Patience.

On the other hand, why leave XJT? You just got a great raise. CAL has ordained you regional of choice for gutting the airline. Why not stay, ride it out for a while. Have you even considered that perhaps the real payback in all this is the growth and industry leading contract at XJT?

 

[Cactus73]

Cactus:

I can tell you exactly what it is like to be an off the street hire at CAL and I am absolutely not confused about the situation here.

If I were a PIG or six year XJT pilot I would have a 50 percent increased likelihood of employment by CAL than someone with more than twice my qualifications.

There are far too many former XJT pilots who are working at CAL for all your assertions to be right. Do not make a mockery of what has been a great deal for a lot of pilots just because it has not come quick enough for you. Patience.

On the other hand, why leave XJT? You just got a great raise. CAL has ordained you regional of choice for gutting the airline. Why not stay, ride it out for a while. Have you even considered that perhaps the real payback in all this is the growth and industry leading contract at XJT?

Why are you telling me to have patience? I left XJT for a major airline. Yes, even though you probably look down on us, AWA is a major airline and our 737-300's came off the same production floor as yours. Why did I leave XJT? Are you kidding me? I'm making more money in my second year here at AWA than I would as a Captain at XJT. I have more days off and fly a better schedule. Not to mention I live in the city I want to live and drive to work. We also have a defined contribution retirement plan. I also left XJT way before the new contract was signed. Before the USAir merger I was expecting an upgrade in 6-7 years.

I'm not making a mockery of the flow-through. I'm just giving you a viewpoint you may not get in the cockpit of a CAL airplane.

As for there being way too many XJT people at CAL for my numbers to be right...you need to study a little more history here.

Before Contract 97, there was a different flow through agreement that brought over a lot of guys from Continental Express to mainline Continental. Many were given CAL seniority numbers when they hired on at Express and flew the B1900 and ATR. These guys were in a program called the Pilot Development Program. This was a totally separate program than the flow through agreement that was negotiated in Contract 97.

Only about 300 Continental Express guys came over in the flow-through agreement. An additional 113 or so came over recently as they were part of this agreement. The PIGS are a totally separate group.

The Contract 97 XJT guys suffered quite a bit to provide jobs for furloughed CAL pilots post 9/11. I flew with many of these guys and they were great people that appreciated the opportunity they were given. I doubt many have changed their minds since they returned to CAL (at least I hope not).

I saw a lot of people go to the street in this. Very few CAL pilots involuntarily went to the street. They either chose to not take the XJT job or were too junior to hold a position at XJT if they did.

CAL owes it to the PIGS to bring them over in one big group. You will never get me to change my mind.

 

[Captain Overs]

Hey Captain Overs,

Before you go knocking ATA pilots, you better know who you are talking about. NOT ONE post prior to this one has been from an ATA pilot. We are not sitting here and complaining about this stuff. NO ONE from the furloughed ATA group has even started interviewing!! The couple of people who have interviews got them because their CAL friends went to their CPs and went to bat for them.

I understand what is angering some folks, and I agree - if they were hired but not in class, yes, absolutely they should be first. Our opportunity to get pref interviews was a negotiated benefit in their concessions package by the CAL pilot group. They didn't have to do it - but they did and we are grateful. But we don't have a bone in this fight. Mother CAL is calling the shots.

So lay off the ATA bashing!

You have no idea who is on this board, as I don't either. So don't tell me who posts and who doesn't.

 

[Flopgut]

Cactus:

Don't project your petty bullsh!t way of looking at things onto me. I have many friends over there. You are probably flying with some of them, they have been there for a while. Great outfit, I hope Parker has his head screwed on right and things go well.

We have two different perspectives here, and I think you are doing a good job of helping me illustrate my point. I don't care by what means it has happened in the past, there are a lot of XJT pilots at CAL. It has been a good thing, I think it should continue. The ingredients are in place for "FTA like" hiring to continue, would you want it ruined for the want of a certain type of treatment for a few when it could help many [all]? If CAL takes all 236 at once, the next 1236 will want the same. Actually, they will want a better deal.

My point is--We need to verbalize the whole situation to CAL interview participants. The relationship with XJT is a complex one and can catch you off guard. Some will be making a decision between multiple opportunities and this may come to bear.

 

[scarlet]

CAL doesn't even our their own people. I have been there 10 years as FA and now have the time, and nothing. But just let you guys know, things have slowed WAY down. They have reserves that are not flying due to the new contract, people are picking up open time to make up the difference. They are going to a new bidding system and they think that they may not need many more pilots. So if you do go there, you better love GUAM or NEWARK.

Rumor and just a Rumor right now-they are looking for a buyer for the Air Mic. flying out of Guam, then all those guys will come back to the mainland.

Not sure what is going to happen

 

[nimtz]

Neal:

This thread is a very good one for pilots wishing to come to CAL to read. For those of you interested who will be hired off the street: You cannot imagine the ambush of contempt and disdain you are walking into. It won't matter what your background is or how hard you have worked to get your shot. From day one, the greenest XJT FO will curse the air you breath. Most CAL FOs have more years/hours professional experience than the sum total of the average XJT crew (perhaps even including the airplane they are in). The same is true for CAL pilot candidates that are off the street, the only thing that draws down this average is if you factor in the XJT flow throughs.

Simple and wrong conclusion to make. You obviously have a chip on your shoulder about XJT probably cause you still mumble 'they stole our flying' every now and then. An off the street guy is hardly going to be looked down on by our group. For crying out loud many at XJT who are not PIGs have applied at CAL. Do you really think 'the greenest XJT FO' is going to give them evil stares? We all know how this business works and certainly don't blame an off the street guy for getting a sought after job. It sure isn't there fault that CAL offered it to them. It's CAL's fault for ignoring my colleagues. The vast majority of us don't take frustrations out on individuals like the 'I hate the barbie jet' types that exist at some places.

I see you are calling out the experience level of the XJT flowthrough guys. Dude seriously give it a rest. Those guys have been 121 captains for at least six years with 2 maybe 3 types. Anybody with that much time and a clean record will make it just fine as an airline pilot anywhere.

When you look at the history of this, I don't think you could find another major airline that has hired more pilots from its regional affiliate. The FTA did great things for a lot of pilots for a long time and I hope it continues. But the fact is, XJT pilots could care less what it has done in the past and what it could do in the future, they want it all and they want it right now. I hope those 236 get flowed into CAL hiring in a fashion silmiliar to the previous methodology, and that the company can build on it. And I hope they are all smart enough to at least try to work other places! Some of these pilots could go to FDX! They can't turn everyone down, come on!

What we want is for our colleagues that were hired by CAL to go to CAL. I know they are just simple RJ pilots and all, but somebody at CAL thought they were worthy of letters of hire in 2002. Call me greedy, but somehow it makes sense that those hired first should be offered class dates first especially when we're talking about three years difference. How you misconstrue this as indicative of a greedy pilot group I don't understand.

All you guys make light of the PIGs not being smart enough to go elsewhere. Well guess what they already either live or commute to CAL domiciles and are overly familiar with how the company works. For most it was alot easier on the home life to wait out CAL rather then go elsewhere. I told as many of as I could to be wary of CAL screwing them and get there stuff out elsewhere. Guess my lack of faith was good thinking.

After the PIGS there will be no relationship between XJT and CAL. That was decided long ago and part of the settlement of the FTA termination was the pref interviews for the PIGs. I will apply to CAL, but consider my current XJT employment to be a major disadvantage. Yeah sure sounds like we want everything.

It has to be at least as much fun to make all that money as it is to mope around sucking on a lemon hoping CAL pilots die early!

Give me a break. Most flowbacks I flew with knew attrition at CAL so well that they knew immediately if anybody had lost their medical that week. Again sorry about the RJ thing and didn't want to 'steal' the flying. It did more damage to my career then yours.

 

[Boeingman]

This is exactly what the company wants. To divide and create animosity between factions within the pilot group. For both present and future hires.

 

[Cactus73]

Cactus:

Don't project your petty bullsh!t way of looking at things onto me. I have many friends over there. You are probably flying with some of them, they have been there for a while. Great outfit, I hope Parker has his head screwed on right and things go well.

We have two different perspectives here, and I think you are doing a good job of helping me illustrate my point. I don't care by what means it has happened in the past, there are a lot of XJT pilots at CAL. It has been a good thing, I think it should continue. The ingredients are in place for "FTA like" hiring to continue, would you want it ruined for the want of a certain type of treatment for a few when it could help many [all]? If CAL takes all 236 at once, the next 1236 will want the same. Actually, they will want a better deal.

Sorry you feel I have a petty bullsh!t way of looking at things. I don't have a stake in this battle. I don't want to come to CAL and am not looking for a job there. I also no longer work for XJT. I'm giving my opinion as a former XJT pilot looking in from the outside.

The FTA is dead and it isn't likely that there will be a new one. For years now CAL has stated that they want to separate themselves completely from XJT. My only point in this whole thing is that the PIG pilots should be taken over before any new off the street new hires. That's it!

You are being a typical paranoid me, me, me, guy if you are worried that the next 1236 guys at XJT are going to want the same.

Personally, I don't really favor FTA agreements because they are difficult to formulate and make fair to all. XJT guys have no FTA agreement but they aren't even allowed to apply at CAL because of the preferential interview system that you guys agreed to. We have a lot of MESA guys here at AWA and they were hired from all different spots on the MESA seniority list. They were hired on their merits.

I'm not trying to get into an agrument with you Flopguy, just offering a different viewpoint. Take it or leave it, I don't really care.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

The ingredients are in place for "FTA like" hiring to continue, would you want it ruined for the want of a certain type of treatment for a few when it could help many [all]? If CAL takes all 236 at once, the next 1236 will want the same. Actually, they will want a better deal.

This simply isn't true. The difference between the guys in the PIP group and the pilots covered under LOA 41-1 is that the guys in the PIP group passed an interview process over 2 1/2 years ago. Anyone hired going forward would full well know the deal ahead of time. This is a critical distinction in the two different groups here. You are making broad stroked assumptions and we both know what "assuming" does. You are mixing issues here. This isn't about anything going forward...a totally separate issue.

-Neal

 

[Flopgut]

This thread should die but I have a bit more to say.

Neal, it could matter less what the exact term was at the time XJT pilots got hired. The result is there are a lot of XJT pilots at CAL. Fact. In the above posts there are almost 550 pilots who are, or are going to be hired by CAL, in less than a decade. By percentage of total hiring, that is a lot. I don't know what you can compare this to and decide it is a bad deal.

I'm confident the 236 pilots will fly for CAL. I think they should apply elsewhere just for good measure. God forbid they experience the seemingly futile anguish of a real full interview process elsewhere. (I know that comment will get your undies in a bind, but it is true) I think for a continued hiring relationship with XJT the process should pattern the past methodologies, and that has been to intergrate with other hiring. I hope that works, if not, then maybe these 236 pilots should conclude our relationship and we take the flow through to another carrier.

 

[Flopgut]

For CAL applicants/interviewees:

Don't do what I did. You get your first seniority list and you see all the XJT guys/gals, and you think "wow". And then you meet some of them and you extend a handshake and say (something like) "hey, thats cool, good for you!" WRONG thing to do. They hate it, and you did not just make a friend, despite your best efforts.

 

[ackattacker]

I'm a totally outside observer but I can't let this go on... I don't see how cactus can make his point any clearer.

I'm confident the 236 pilots will fly for CAL. I think they should apply elsewhere just for good measure. God forbid they experience the seemingly futile anguish of a real full interview process elsewhere. (I know that comment will get your undies in a bind, but it is true)

The point being made was that those specific 236 pilots were ALREADY PROMISED A JOB at CAL. Not an interview, not "integration with other new hires", a JOB. Why should they interview elsewhere if they can take CAL at its word?

I think for a continued hiring relationship with XJT the process should pattern the past methodologies, and that has been to intergrate with other hiring. I hope that works, if not, then maybe these 236 pilots should conclude our relationship and we take the flow through to another carrier.

How many times has this been said? THERE IS NO FLOW THROUGH FROM XJT TO CAL. There is no "continued hiring relationship". There is not even preferential interviewing! There is no flow through period! They will not take their flow through to another carrier, because THERE IS NO FLOW THROUGH. Shall I say it again? All that there exists is 236 XJT pilots who were promised jobs at CAL years ago and have yet to get them, while of the street new hires get seniority numbers ahead of them.

Gawd. I swear, I don't work for CAL or XJT nor do I have an app in at either. But I can imagine that a XJT PIG might not be to happy to have an off the street new-hire tell him how lucky he is to get a job at CAL.

 

[Thedude]

How about your not a CAL employee until you get a employee number.
Just because a job offer has been made does not make you an employee. They can still retract the job offer.

 

[zonker]

Continental Profit Outlook Brightens
By SUSAN WARREN
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
June 3, 2005; Page B2

Continental Airlines reported strong improvement last month in a key measure of airline revenue, continuing a streak that could return the carrier to profitability.

Houston-based Continental said its consolidated unit revenue, or revenue spread over each seat-mile flown, leaped up as much as 9.5% in May compared to the same period a year ago, nearly double the increase analysts had expected. Continental attributed the gains to more passengers filling its seats, creating more demand that has enabled the carrier to raise fares. Last week, U.S. airlines pushed through their eighth fare increase this year.

As a result, analysts predicted Continental would report a profit in the second quarter or at least break even after having posted a $184 million loss in the first quarter. The size of the revenue increase "all but assures a second-quarter profit despite surging energy costs," said Jamie Baker, an analyst with JP Morgan.

The outlook for most of the U.S. industry remains gloomy. Ray Neidl, an analyst with Calyon Securities, still expects traditional hub-and-spoke carriers will lose about $1 billion in the second quarter combined and over $5.5 billion for the year, with some still facing liquidity issues.

Still, Continental soared to a 52-week high, rising $1.10, or 8.1%, to $14.67 at 4 p.m. in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. Also on the Big Board, American Airlines parent AMR Corp. rose 99 cents, or 7.8%, to $13.72 and discount king Southwest Airlines rose 18 cents, or 1.2%, to $14.68. Northwest Airlines rose 47 cents, or 8%, to $6.38 in Nasdaq Stock Market composite trading.

Unlike most other airlines, Continental reports monthly revenue-per-seat figures, so its monthly results often serve as an overall industry bellwether.

The airline industry has been bogged down in heavy losses as skyrocketing fuel costs outstripped carriers' efforts to cut costs, fill seats and raise fares. In the first quarter, for instance, Continental reported an increase in load factor, or the percentage of seats filled, while unit revenue was up 3.8% in the quarter. But fuel prices rose 39.5%, boosting Continental's total consolidated costs in the period by 5.4%. So while its revenue spread over every seat-mile flown was 9.61 cents, its cost per seat mile was 11.35 cents.

But the strength of May's revenue increase, following smaller increases in April and March, could indicate the carrier is beginning to overcome the fuel handicap. Continental also reported a 4.7-point jump in load factor, filling 79.1% of its seats compared to May 2004. Together with the airline's success in cutting costs, Continental's "underlying profitability is improving rapidly," concluded Goldman Sachs analyst Glenn Engel in a note to investors.

Separately, United Airlines parent UALCorp. said it had a net loss of $124 million in April, a deficit that included $28 million of expenses related to its bankruptcy-court reorganization. For the month, the Chicago carrier said its operating loss of $47 million was narrower than the $75 million operating loss a year earlier, despite a fuel bill that was $91 million higher this April than last. UAL said its cost to fly a seat a mile for its mainline jet network increased 7% on a 4% reduction in capacity. Excluding fuel, mainline unit costs fell 2%.

---- Susan Carey contributed to this article

​

Write to Susan Warren at [email protected]

 

[Flopgut]

There is no "continued hiring relationship". There is not even preferential interviewing! There is no flow through period! They will not take their flow through to another carrier, because THERE IS NO FLOW THROUGH. Shall I say it again?--ackattack

From CAL 02 contract summary:

When hiring, the company will provide preferential interviews to pilots from express carriers and will seek similiar protections for CAL pilots in agreements with express carriers.

--Hmm?

But I can imagine that a XJT PIG might not be to happy to have an off the street new-hire tell him how lucky he is to get a job at CAL.--ackattack

I am talking about my experience with flow throughs between 1997 and 2001.

 

[nimtz]

From CAL 02 contract summary:

When hiring, the company will provide preferential interviews to pilots from express carriers and will seek similiar protections for CAL pilots in agreements with express carriiers.

--Hmm?

Those are vague words my friend, which aren't worth the cost of the paper to print it. I can assure you if CAL ALPA offers pref interviews, but expects any future CAL furloughs to get intergrated doh at the 'express carriers' ala FTA, they will be told to go away. In the end provision won't mean squat.

But I can imagine that a XJT PIG might not be to happy to have an off the street new-hire tell him how lucky he is to get a job at CAL.--ackattack

I am talking about my experience with flow throughs between 1997 and 2001.

Well at this rate I don't think I can tell a PIG he is lucky to get a job at CAL. After all CAL doesn't appear to want them working here. Yes you can imagine why it sucks for the PIGS cause you know seniority is everything in this business. Losing a year to someone makes the all the difference between left seat in five years or right seat for 15. There are enough guys at CAL who have shown me that story.

I've heard the stories from off the street CAL hires like you about attitude issues with the flowthroughs. I agree the chips on somes shoulders were completely uncalled for since they walked into a pretty sweat deal. While a few bad apples does spoil the bunch, your attitude is no different them me falsely assuming CAL is made up nothing more then '83 hires.

Many flowbacks hated Express when they came to work here. As the days went on they realized we are all in the same game as professionals and many actually had fun despite the furlough. People's perceptions can change quite nicely. Just the other day a buddy of mine who's an off the street guy told me he thinks CAL should hire as many Express guys as possible. To him it seems like the right thing to do given the past history. I told him I appreciated his notion, but that it wouldn't be happening anytime soon.

 

[Flopgut]

Those are vague words my friend, which aren't worth the cost of the paper to print it. I can assure you if CAL ALPA offers pref interviews, but expects any future CAL furloughs to get intergrated doh at the 'express carriers' ala FTA, they will be told to go away. In the end provision won't mean squat.--Nimtz

What is this deal with all the defeatism?

The 236 will come over at some point, and then hopefully more. If CAL has to hire all 236 at once I think the potential for future hiring will be spoiled. Bad apples are everywhere, but for the most part XJT pilots are great. That is my point, in part, more than just this 236 should have the chance if they want it. Now, almost to the man (or woman) they regard me with not-so-subtle disgust. But I can see they are good folks nonetheless.

Personally, I think 236 is going to be more than half of the total hiring CAL does this time. I would be careful what I wish for.

 

[ackattacker]

What is this deal with all the defeatism?

The 236 will come over at some point, and then hopefully more. If CAL has to hire all 236 at once I think the potential for future hiring will be spoiled.

If flow-through resumes as CAL I will eat my hat.

The only advantage of flow-through to a mainline carrier pilot group is the flow-back. Which no regional pilot group will agree to, now that they've seen the carnage that can result. Regionals like a flow through because it encourages senior guys to move on and offers a "benefit" to new hires which keeps the pilot pool fresh and helps hiring (read: low labor costs). But to the mainline, a one-way flow through offers no advantage. Hence, FTA's are basically finished except in cases where the mainline still has a significant financial stake in the regional carrier.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

This thread should die but I have a bit more to say.

Neal, it could matter less what the exact term was at the time XJT pilots got hired. The result is there are a lot of XJT pilots at CAL. Fact. In the above posts there are almost 550 pilots who are, or are going to be hired by CAL, in less than a decade. By percentage of total hiring, that is a lot. I don't know what you can compare this to and decide it is a bad deal.

Yes, it should die. Reason being is that CAL management has already made their decision on this issue and we should all move on from here. But against my better judgement...here goes...

Yes, there are a lot of XJT pilots at CAL right now...a few hundred came in the last 8 years. Why is that germaine to the discussion? It absolutely matters that this other group of pilots was hired (with signed letters) almost 3 years ago and there are now many pilots slotting in ahead of them who were hired in the past week...some of them with 1/4th the total flight time of these guys.

I'm confident the 236 pilots will fly for CAL. I think they should apply elsewhere just for good measure. God forbid they experience the seemingly futile anguish of a real full interview process elsewhere. (I know that comment will get your undies in a bind, but it is true) I think for a continued hiring relationship with XJT the process should pattern the past methodologies, and that has been to intergrate with other hiring. I hope that works, if not, then maybe these 236 pilots should conclude our relationship and we take the flow through to another carrier.

Yes, they one day will fly for CAL. And some will have lost hundreds of numbers and thousands of dollars of lost career income as a result of this issue. But as I said above, CAL management has made its decision and that decision is fully theirs to make.

They should apply elsewhere? Who are you to tell them where to apply? Especially when their "congratulations" letter mandates that in order to keep their job at CAL they have to stay at XJT. And some HAVE applied elsewhere...but last I checked, there are tens of thousands of pilots applying for hundreds of jobs.

This isn't about diversifying a hiring pool or not diversifying it...nobody at XJT has any issues with that idea.

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

For CAL applicants/interviewees:

Don't do what I did. You get your first seniority list and you see all the XJT guys/gals, and you think "wow". And then you meet some of them and you extend a handshake and say (something like) "hey, thats cool, good for you!" WRONG thing to do. They hate it, and you did not just make a friend, despite your best efforts.

Sounds to me like someone has judged several thousand pilots based on one or two bad apples. Should I tell you about the several bad apples that CAL sent back to XJT after 9/11?

-Neal

 

[aa73]

The Contract 97 XJT guys suffered quite a bit to provide jobs for furloughed CAL pilots post 9/11. I flew with many of these guys and they were great people that appreciated the opportunity they were given.

This is exactly what's happening with the American Eagle pilot group and the AA flowbacks... How many CAL pilots flowed back? I believe AA has about 300-400 at Eagle now. Very ugly environment. Did you guys have that problem too?

 

[Paul R. Smith]

This is exactly what's happening with the American Eagle pilot group and the AA flowbacks... How many CAL pilots flowed back? I believe AA has about 300-400 at Eagle now. Very ugly environment. Did you guys have that problem too?

At XJT we had about 386 (NEAL PLZ VERIFY THIS) CAL pilots.

 

[Waborita]

Flopgut just sounds like another uninformed ex-military guy who went to CAL,(probably scabbed to get his job) has no clue what civilians (Regional pilots) go through, definately does not where his ALPA pin. Probaly has never voted on issues at CALALPA, but definately voted YES for their concessions.

Like Flopgut said "this thread should die" unfortunately he won't shut up!

 

[jetexas]

Eagle has upwards of 450 flowbacks here now. It's approaching 500.
124 Eagle pilots flowed to AA, pre - 9/11. It's ugly.

 

[aa73]

Eagle has upwards of 450 flowbacks here now. It's approaching 500.
124 Eagle pilots flowed to AA, pre - 9/11. It's ugly.

Jetexas - So there are more that are coming? Because I was told that the April 1 furloughees are not getting trained, in anticipation of recalls. Right now they are saying 1Q '06.

73

 

[nimtz]

This is exactly what's happening with the American Eagle pilot group and the AA flowbacks... How many CAL pilots flowed back? I believe AA has about 300-400 at Eagle now. Very ugly environment. Did you guys have that problem too?

Xjet had early drama with the flowbacks. Reason being the flowbacks were p!ssed that they were getting furloughed from CAL so quick. If you look back, CAL furloughed the most guys percentage wise immediately after 9/11. So in other words, alot of flowbacks were po'd they lost their jobs while their buddies at AMR and NWA still had there's (eventhough for what turned out to be for a few more months). As a result a flowback would occasionally be overheard make a derogatory remark about having to work for XJet. Meanwhile the XJet's guys were po'd because our guys were going to the street and getting bumped back to FO. So the last thing an Xjet guy wanted to hear was a flowback b!tching about his/her new captain seat that use to belong to that Xjet pilot. Yes there were a few occasions of harsh words spoken and one case I know where a Xjet checkairmen was overly critical of a flowback on IOE.

After letting the steam settle a little, we all realized we had to work with each other and just got on with our jobs. In short time a flowback became just another line pilot for the most part. Now there were examples on both sides that kept grudges, but they were few and far between in my experience. As I've said before most of the flowbacks were a blast to fly with and in some sick way it's too bad I'll never fly a trip with many of them again.

As for Eagle, man I can't believe some of the junk I read that's going on over there reference flowbacks. Come on, fistfights in ops! I think the Eagle guys have a legit chip on their shoulder thanks to past actions of the 'fair' minded leadership of APA. Nevertheless the Xjet example is proof that somebody boned by a flowback process will be alot happier if they realize the flowback's dealing with the exact same job BS. That means go have a beer with him at the overnight. You might actually end up enjoying flying with the guy in the end.

 

[nimtz]

Flopgut just sounds like another uninformed ex-military guy who went to CAL,(probably scabbed to get his job) has no clue what civilians (Regional pilots) go through, definately does not where his ALPA pin. Probaly has never voted on issues at CALALPA, but definately voted YES for their concessions.

Like Flopgut said "this thread should die" unfortunately he won't shut up!

Kind of hard to scab if he was hired 97-01. You are smarter then that. Drop the scab stereotype already cause it ain't 1985 last I checked...

 

[Waborita]

Kind of hard to scab if he was hired 97-01. You are smarter then that. Drop the scab stereotype already cause it ain't 1985 last I checked...

I guess I should have added the rolling eyes . My point was he is stereo typing all xjet guys so I threw the same mud back. You are correct however!

 

[aa73]

As for Eagle, man I can't believe some of the junk I read that's going on over there reference flowbacks. Come on, fistfights in ops! I think the Eagle guys have a legit chip on their shoulder thanks to past actions of the 'fair' minded leadership of APA..

And therein lies the problem - the only pilots who think the APA is "fair-minded" are senior APA officials and a bunch of narrow-minded Sky Nazis - yes we have a lot of them. Unfortunately, in my short tenure at American (5+ years) I'm slowly starting to realize that the APA has a tendency to negotiate something and then, once it's agreed to, they try and back out of it. Sound familiar? Think Frank Lorenzo.

Anyways, the Eagle pilots do have a legit chip on their shoulder, as would I if I was over there. It's a raw deal for them, but just the same I wouldn't be fist fighting over it either. It's not worth risking your whole career over.