Moodys revises Jetblue debt to Negative

[General Lee]

Maybe the airlines should hire CEO's out of the oil industry. The cost to get a barrel out of the ground has stayed consistently at $12-$15. Yet the price per barrel has gone from $25 to $61 in just over a year with CH-11's coming everywhere. Lets start by hanging all the lawyers. Especially the ones running airlines who don't know how to spell leadership let alone display it.

Where did Glen Tilton come from? He came from Texxaco or Chevron I think---he was a Senior VP I believe. That is why he got a huge bonus from United---to bring him what he could have had at the oil company.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Actually, his $10 million dollar analogy is spot on. The C2K contract guaranteed that the DL pilots would consume most of DL's profits and that's assuming the economy had stayed healthy and no 9/11.

Don't forget that DL's financials had begun to erode in 2000. In the first quarter of 2001, DL lost $122 million dollars. That may not sound like a lot given the magnitude of DL's losses today, but in the 1st quarter of 2000, DL had a PROFIT of $172 million. Clearly, things were beginning to unravel at DL before the pilots contract was signed.



You're right, but smart companies still do it. Smart companies keep their costs manageable so that they can survive the down times. Everyone talks about WN's now industry leading pay...what they don't look at is WN's productivity. The WN pilots earn that pay by being some of the most productive pilots in the industry. The WN pilots get raises that are sustainable (even in downtimes) and offset much of that costs with productivity improvements.

The companies that survive are those that look to the future, not live in the past.

That last sentence made me get a Kleenex. Wow. Academy Award for writing excellence. Why didn't Delta come to us earlier and at least take the first offer of 10% a year earlier? Were they thinking into the future with our 32.5% pay cut? I guess Delta was.

And, don't compare WN to DL please. Their productivity comes from their route structure. They don't really have a hub and spoke. Sure, there are some connections, but a lot of their flights fly in a straight line across the country, with multiple stops. Our business plan is built on huge hubs, with connections from a lot of cities that LCCs avoid---and put them on bigger planes to fly to big cities and often INTL cities. Our people working at the big hubs are very efficient, often working 12 flights a day at each gate, maybe more with the new turn times. But, our pilots cannot always take the next flight out. (Maybe the MD88 guys) Next thing you will say about WN is that they average more hours per month than DL pilots. Well, since they have one aircraft type, they don't have to go to 4 week schools when they move up or down from one aircraft to another. On the "average", we fly less per month----but a good percentage of our folks are in school----which brings DOWN the average.

Please come up with some more "profound" statements. I have the Kleenex waiting.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[michael707767]

Actually, his $10 million dollar analogy is spot on. The C2K contract guaranteed that the DL pilots would consume most of DL's profits and that's assuming the economy had stayed healthy and no 9/11.

actually General, he is on the right track. Our biggest profits prior to 9/11 were about 1 billion. And that was during one of the best times ever in the industry. I think I remember our contract was going to cost the company about 2 billion over the life of the contract, or about 500 mil a year. So our new contract costs were going to eat up half of the profits Delta was getting during record years. I felt it was too much at the time and I still think it was too much. I never spent a dime of the pay raise we got because I knew it would never last.

 

[General Lee]

Leo Mullin thought "we deserved to ask for a raise." He said he expected us to do that. He then signed it and said "now you are the highest paid pilots, and you work for Delta." He was almost proud of it. Yeah, it was a lot, and he wasn't taking into account the uprising LCCs. Were we supposed to? We were making up for our '96 concessions. We could have done other things to make up for the loss, or we could have conceded earlier with our concessions, but the SERP program didn't help. The $2 billion stock buy back pre-9-11 really didn't help matters, but I don't remember approving that. Selling the hedges must have been my fault too. Hoping USAir would just die was my fault also. Parking the MD-11s just before the Iraq invasion and not seeing that we might actually have a busy Summer that year (which we did) was my first suggestion...... NOT taking the first couple offers from the pilot group was also the plan....



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[SpeedBird]

Pilot pay increases during the last half of the 1990s was based on revenues that were largely inflated by the dot.com bubble and the associated record increase in high-yield business travel. While most people at the time didn't understand the artificiality of the economic trends of that time, it surely didn't take a rocket scientist to look back over the entire history of this industry to see that it hasn't been able to collectively show a profit since its inception, and that business is highly cyclical with generally short periods of strong financial performance when overall economic activity is strong. Pilot unions like ALPA got greedy and used only a snapshot view of the industry's unrealistic strong growth in the 1990s to peg their negotiated pay increases going forward over the long-term. The only thing worse was management's own stupidity and greed.

One final thought....GL, unlike a fine wine you don't improve with age nor with 5,000 posts on this mesage board. I'm ashamed to think I have to share the same profession with a knucklehead like you.

 

[klhoard]

Pilot pay increases during the last half of the 1990s was based on revenues that were largely inflated by the dot.com bubble and the associated record increase in high-yield business travel. While most people at the time didn't understand the artificiality of the economic trends of that time, it surely didn't take a rocket scientist to look back over the entire history of this industry to see that it hasn't been able to collectively show a profit since its inception, and that business is highly cyclical with generally short periods of strong financial performance when overall economic activity is strong. Pilot unions like ALPA got greedy and used only a snapshot view of the industry's unrealistic strong growth in the 1990s to peg their negotiated pay increases going forward over the long-term. The only thing worse was management's own stupidity and greed.

One final thought....GL, unlike a fine wine you don't improve with age nor with 5,000 posts on this mesage board. I'm ashamed to think I have to share the same profession with a knucklehead like you.

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So. . . . Where would they be NOW if they didn't get the "raises of the '90's" before the "concessions of the '00's"???
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Hindsight sure is 20/20, isn't it??
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[General Lee]

Pilot pay increases during the last half of the 1990s was based on revenues that were largely inflated by the dot.com bubble and the associated record increase in high-yield business travel. While most people at the time didn't understand the artificiality of the economic trends of that time, it surely didn't take a rocket scientist to look back over the entire history of this industry to see that it hasn't been able to collectively show a profit since its inception, and that business is highly cyclical with generally short periods of strong financial performance when overall economic activity is strong. Pilot unions like ALPA got greedy and used only a snapshot view of the industry's unrealistic strong growth in the 1990s to peg their negotiated pay increases going forward over the long-term. The only thing worse was management's own stupidity and greed.

One final thought....GL, unlike a fine wine you don't improve with age nor with 5,000 posts on this mesage board. I'm ashamed to think I have to share the same profession with a knucklehead like you.

HA HA. Look in the mirror jacka$$. If you like the status quo and think that being an underpaid busdriver is OK, then fine. Management is always right, according to you. They will protect your interests..... It is our right to try to better our lives, and when companies profit, it is our right to want to participate in the profit sharing. ALPA tries to look out for us, and that is what I pay them to do.

You and your posts have added little value to this board. This forum is meant for information and debate, and if you can't handle it (which is obvious), then leave.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[michael707767]

i admit the pay scale isn't pretty, but its the nature of the beast in the industry we work in today. why do i want to INCREASE pilot cost per seat mile for a specific aircraft?

I understand and don't entirely disagree with the idea that the new 190 pay rate was figured by taking the 320 pay per seat, and multiplying by the number of seats on the 190. Fair enough. It will be interesting to see if management thinks its such a good idea if JB ever operates a larger aircraft, say an A-330. That would just about double the pay over the 320 and make the JB guys the highest paid for that aircraft. My bet is suddenly, JB management will have a different idea on how pay should be figured.

 

[TAZ MAN]

I understand and don't entirely disagree with the idea that the new 190 pay rate was figured by taking the 320 pay per seat, and multiplying by the number of seats on the 190. Fair enough. It will be interesting to see if management thinks its such a good idea if JB ever operates a larger aircraft, say an A-330. That would just about double the pay over the 320 and make the JB guys the highest paid for that aircraft. My bet is suddenly, JB management will have a different idea on how pay should be figured.

Good point.

 

[jbucpt]

HA HA. Look in the mirror jacka$$. If you like the status quo and think that being an underpaid busdriver is OK, then fine. Management is always right, according to you. They will protect your interests..... It is our right to try to better our lives, and when companies profit, it is our right to want to participate in the profit sharing. ALPA tries to look out for us, and that is what I pay them to do.

You and your posts have added little value to this board. This forum is meant for information and debate, and if you can't handle it (which is obvious), then leave.

Bye Bye--General Lee

speedbirds one post had more intelligence and realistic value than your 5000+ post combined general. your statement of "ALPA tries to look out for us" shows your unrealistic, and naive view of what ALPA does for you and how they negotiate contracts. (good economic times and bad). 'bettering our lives" doesnt mean losing your job if economic conditions could go south.

if you dont believe me, lets ask your brethrens at TWA, UNITED, and USAIR how ALPA looked out for them...

in regards to "underpaid busdrivers", i believe its now your union buddies over at UNITED.......

 

[MedFlyer]

It is our right to try to better our lives, and when companies profit, it is our right to want to participate in the profit sharing. ALPA tries to look out for us, and that is what I pay them to do.

Bye Bye--General Lee

I don't think anyone is debating that the DL pilots deserved a raise in 2000. They did deserve a raise. However, your raises ate up the majority of DL's would-be profits. Do you really believe that the DL pilots deserved to consume 75% of DL's profits?? Even worse, that 75% figure is based on the assumption that the late 90's was a normal operating environment (which most people knew it wasn't).

Common sense would tell you that you shouldn't build your pay structure assuming everything will be perfect (like the late 90's). Similarly, you shouldn't build your pay structure based on an economic recession/terrorist attack/fuel price spike, etc. The goal is to build a sustainable pay structure that falls in between. DALPA and DL management failed to do this.

I think it's funny how you keep praising Leo for being such a smart guy and giving you huge raises. Yet, the rest of the time you give us a huge laundry list of Leo's mistakes. If Leo's judgement was so poor (SERP, stock buyback,etc), why was his judgement so good when it came to giving out raises? Your logic just doesn't add up.

 

[Green]

Speedbird,


I'm just curious what your idea of a fair compensation package for pilots would be? The Dal and Ual contracts put them back at pre-concession pay levels. They were not out of line. Pilots have always made a good living. Do you think that is wrong? Do you honestly think that the airline business would have been profitable if pilots had made 20% less during the history of commercial aviation.

Untill the airlines abandon the practicde of charging less than their product costs to provide then pilot salaries are irrelevant. The airlines are knowingly operating at a loss and use employee concessions to mitigate those losses, not to return to profitability.

Look at the last concessionary agreement by Dal which was immediately followed by a massive fare reduction. Us Airways cut their pilot pay nearly 50% and proceeded to lower their fares to unsustainable levels.

The Wall Street journal just quoted the average total compensation (including benefits) of air traffic controllers as 165k/year. Do we deserve to make as much as the guys vectoring us around? I bet airline pilots are nowhere near that 165 figure when you average us out. SWA pays almost double the percentage on employee wages as Ual. We all know who is more succesful. Look at the top businesses in any industry and I think you will find that they pay their employees a premium.

 

[BoilerUP]

The Wall Street journal just quoted the average total compensation (including benefits) of air traffic controllers as 165k/year.

If you include your benefits, not just pay, into your total compensation, I'd be willing to bet its higher than that for pilots even today. Medical, dental, 401(k) match, A plan, B plan, profit sharing, etc adds up.

If you want to compare pay, thats fine..but don't start adding benefits into the equation. I'd be willing to bet that number came from the FAA not NATCA, skewed with benefits included to make the controllers look greedy. Hmmm, kinda like pilot negotiations, eh?

 

[General Lee]

I don't think anyone is debating that the DL pilots deserved a raise in 2000. They did deserve a raise. However, your raises ate up the majority of DL's would-be profits. Do you really believe that the DL pilots deserved to consume 75% of DL's profits?? Even worse, that 75% figure is based on the assumption that the late 90's was a normal operating environment (which most people knew it wasn't).

Common sense would tell you that you shouldn't build your pay structure assuming everything will be perfect (like the late 90's). Similarly, you shouldn't build your pay structure based on an economic recession/terrorist attack/fuel price spike, etc. The goal is to build a sustainable pay structure that falls in between. DALPA and DL management failed to do this.

I think it's funny how you keep praising Leo for being such a smart guy and giving you huge raises. Yet, the rest of the time you give us a huge laundry list of Leo's mistakes. If Leo's judgement was so poor (SERP, stock buyback,etc), why was his judgement so good when it came to giving out raises? Your logic just doesn't add up.

I said in a previous post that the ONLY thing I liked about Leo was his statement about going for a big raise. He said go for what you think you deserve. But, I have listed his multitude of mistakes also.

As far as building the perfect pay structure to weather bad times too, you know that management would normally take advantage of any down time (like September load factors vs Summer) and use it to their own benefit. If you didn't have a no furlough clause, they COULD try seasonal furloughs. (like USA3000) If you tied your salary to prices of oil, they would make sure they didn't buy hedges. Management will often do whatever it takes to make themselves look good, and then take large bonuses. IF you negotiate higher pay scales and allow the opportunity for management to COME TO YOU AND ASK FOR HELP----PROVIDING PROOF----then you can address their needs too. The problem with Leo was that he wanted help, and at the same time was putting $65 million in offshore accounts for his management team. Those "retention" bonuses he also gave out left with the people that they were trying to keep. Michele Burns, our CFO during the troublesome 2001-2004 period, was nice enough to say, after she was leaving, that Delta didn't have to pay her all of her retention bonus at once, rather in two payments, which would be easier for Delta. How nice was that? I thought retention bonuses were there to keep people around? And you want us to give management extra flexibility with our pay? How about we get a raise and then entertain ideas about pay cuts if the proof is there? That is the correct way to do it. ALPA knows that.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[LandGreen]

Let me guess, you didn't say anything because your 5 year "interview" was coming up? No union, no protection. They have learned how to shut you guys up----a 5 year interview...... You may care about the rates, but you are too scared to speak up. So, instead, you put your efforts into something better for the rest of us------TRANSCON TURNS. I can't wait to do JFK-LAX-JFK in one day. Maybe I could catch a good nap on the autoland back into JFK in the FOG. Next thing you will want is to marry your SISTER. Thanks a lot. Don't choke on the blue Kool-aid. Breathe in, breathe out.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Hey General.....



Refresh my short memory please................was it not motha delta that started the advent and pheonomenal growth of regional jets at the expense of mainline jobs?

I think we can all give at least a casual head nod to jetBlue management for not outsourcing their E190 to "jetBlue Connection"

Once the economics for this brand new a/c are in and IF jetBlue is still making a profit with them....then you can complain about pay rates! Until then please put those stones down since the glass walls in our "legacy house" are extremely fragil these days!